Labor 101, or why strikes are okay

In a thread about the WGA strike (edit: and in a related thread about the SAG-AFTRA strike), there’s a lot of disagreement over what unions can and should do. The problem is that a lot of the objections to WGA and SAG-AFTRA actions are, as far as I can tell, based either on ignorance of how labor unions work, or a bone-deep objection to the idea of effective organized labor. But figuring out why exactly people are objecting–ignorance, or antipathy to labor–was getting us pretty far away from the topic. So I thought that a new thread might be good.

Here are some positions that I’ll set out, to get the discussion started.

Except under exceptional circumstances, violence is not a legitimate tactic for maintaining a strike. Unionized garbage collectors who beat up freelance garbage collectors are bad people. This should be obvious, but I’m putting it here to forestall odious analogies. (“Exceptional circumstances” would generally involve violence instigated by the business owners, in which case defensive violence is sometimes legitimate–but I’m not especially interested in a long back-and-forth about violence and would prefer that to be in a different thread).

Closed shops arrived at through contract negotiations are valid exercises of worker power. Everyone has freedom of association. People who join a union are free to work where they want. They’re free to say, “I’ll only work at a business that only hires union people.” Businesses are free to hire who they want. They can choose to hire union members or not. Non-union members are free to work for any business that agrees to hire them. If a union and a business come together and agree on exclusivity, that’s well within their freedom of association. Preventing such an agreement is an infringement on the freedom of both union and business.

Cross-union solidarity is a valid exercise of worker power. When a union strikes, it withdraws its labor. But a union knows this may not suffice to bring the business to the table; so they may agree with another union to honor one another’s strikes. Workers at each union agree to honor picket lines. This is a freely-arrived-at agreement between the unions, and any effort to prevent union solidarity is an impingement on the liberty of members of both unions.

Strikes should be a pain in the ass. The point of a strike is to make things untenable for the companies, to put pressure on the companies to settle. This inconveniences consumers as well. As long as the inconvenience isn’t dangerous, that’s legitimate: unhappy consumers may put pressure on management to go ahead and settle. If a strike results in an almost-complete show being cancelled, and it’s a very popular and well-regarded show, that’s a good thing from the striker’s perspective: it causes maximum inconvenience to management and puts maximum pressure on them to negotiate. A labor action that’s polite and convenient is also called a “failed labor action.”

Public sector unions are a valid exercise of worker power. Voters choose their representatives in government, and those representatives or their appointees negotiate with workers. Public workers choose to work those jobs and choose whether to join the union. If a public sector union makes an agreement with the peoples’ representatives to undertake certain working conditions–including to have a closed shop–that’s legitimate. If the people don’t like that agreement, the people should vote for different representatives.

Not all union actions are good. Just because something’s a valid exercise of worker power doesn’t mean that it’s being exercised for a good cause. I’m in a teacher’s union, recently resigned from leadership because I was freaking exhausted (seriously, it gives me so much more sympathy for people that say they want to spend more time with their family), and we agitated for better pay, to try to gain parity with workers in other similar districts in our state. That was legitimate. If we’d been agitating instead for the right to work remotely at any time for any reason, that would have been a valid exercise of power for a really bad cause, because it would’ve hurt children. Defending the validity of certain labor actions is different from defending the worthiness of certain labor goals, and the two should not be confused.

And others are allowed to exercise their own rights by not working for businesses that are involved in a labor dispute. Or by not buying products from such businesses.

Absolutely! They’re even free not to buy from a business that does agree to a closed shop.

What’s the subject actually up for debate?

Agree

disagree

disagree

Agree, if they aren’t they are unlikely to succeed.

agree, with limitations such as police and armed forces

agree

But seeing as this thread is obviously aimed at me, at least in some part, let me clarify a couple of things myself.

I’m neither ignorant of how labour unions work (at least in the UK, Japan and Germany) and I am fully in support of the principle of organised labour, I simply balance the rights of employers, union employees and non-union employees in a different way to you.

And nor was I objecting to the strike in question. I am completley neutral on whether what they are doing is “good” or not. I do think it is ultimately doomed to failure and that some of their demands are not reasonable and that there is very little general public interest.

But those clarifications aside, I do appreciate you starting the thread and setting out your positions. It makes reasonable discussion possible.

“Agree” and “disagree” are good if I’m trying to learn more about you, but, with all due respect, I’m not trying to learn more about you. I’m only interested in positions if they’re backed up by facts and reasoning, and even then, it’s the facts and reasoning that are interesting. Knowing that you agree or disagree is no more enlightening than knowing whether you like pizza with anchovies.

Oh, to live in a nation where the bolded statements aren’t up for debate…

What’s invalid about them? Where exactly does the chain of premises LHoD laid out break down for you?

Aah, you want the premises of the OP debated, not taken as read? Gotcha.

Well, I agree with all of them (except would not do violence myself). For the same reasoning you give. And because I live in a country that’s seen both the good and bad of union action, and the good (my right to vote, my overall freedom) kind of outweighs the bad.

fair point.

One by one then.

On closed shops, being forced to join a union as a condition for employment is an unreasonable imposition on a prospective employee. I see it no differently to being forced to join/leave any other political party or similar organisation.

Unions aren’t political parties.

I agree with everything posited, so I look forward to the debate to test my own assumptions. For me, it boils down to what I read as the essence of the OP: we are all free to associate with whomever we’d like, and use the power of that association to negotiate what we’d prefer. That goes for unions and corporations.

I like anchovies on pizza, by the way. :grinning:

In many instances they are both political entities as well as labour organisations and the line is very much blurred in the UK where many of the key trade unions are affiliated with the Labour party and have historically had huge influence over it.

But in any case I can see no material difference between compulsory membership of a union (as a condition of employment) or compulsory membership of a political party or other similar organisation.

No argument from me. What I don’t think we should be free to do is impose association on someone else. That is just as bad as limiting free association in the first place.

So are businesses. Or are we in a world where unions influence politics and corporations don’t?

Ultimately, you’re OK if people who want to work in FACTORY Z are required to join ORGANIZATION X that is politically active but not if they are also required to join ORGANIZATION Y that is also politically active, because X is a company that manufactures things and Y is a union of workers who manufacture things.

You are equating a politically active company as being an equivalent organisation to a politically active union?

Sure, if the problem is defined as compulsory membership in a politically active legal entity as a condition of employment, they seem pretty similar to me.

And therein lies the problem. Employers already have all the power. Unions exist to take back that power. And, even with as much power as they claw back, they never have as much power as the employer. Even when the unions win, the employers still always make out better–being paid more. (Heck, that’s why they generally get labeled the bad guys—they’d still be fine even if they met all the strikers’ demands.)

Thus, when you come up with new rights that limit the union’s power, you aren’t balancing the power. You’re weakening everything.

And the non-union worker is just another worker. There is nothing about not joining a union that should mean you have as much power as the union or the employee. If you want to be all on your own, then you have the power you have on your own. Nothing more.

This is why I say you don’t support unions or labour. You are coming up with regulations that would weaken them. If you support something, you’re not going to remove some of their teeth.

Instead, it seems to be more that you are going by some completely separate principles that have nothing to do with unions. You keep bringing up freedom of association, but that’s not why unions exist. That’s not pro-labour. Employers are not pro-labour. They are anti-labour.

But I don’t think you’ll get that. It doesn’t seem to bother you that your pro-labour position actually takes power away from labour. You seem to think that the status quo is that labour is too powerful, and want to weaken it.

Just to clarify this and you’re previous posts, you are opposed to businesses only hiring union employees for reasons? Any business should be free to hire union and non-union employees?

If that is correct, never mind the reasons, are you therefore opposed to union contracts that require only union members? Sounds that way. How about worded a little differently, are you opposed to a business engaging in a contract with a union as the exclusive supplier of employees? Or any other such employment agency which could decide the qualifications for the employees they place?

There are businesses that supply particular types of services to other businesses. Common examples are security, mail, and custodial services. Unions are effectively doing the same, but organized as partnerships rather than corporations. Opposition to unions prevents people from engaging in economic activity.