You know, for a lot of my friends, this is not a theoretical question.
I can’t quite figure out what you mean by this. Please be patient with me and spell it out a little bit more.
If I have it right, you are saying that a non-trans woman who is read as male is still “female on the outside,” whereas a trans woman who is read as male is “male on the outside.” Is this correct?
If so, then I’m afraid I don’t know what you mean by “on the outside.”
I think the simplest point of reference is whether they have a penis or a vagina between their legs.
I know people who hide who they are because they are afraid of violence. There was a girl killed down here just a couple years ago. I’ve personally seen my friends threatened with violence and harrassed on the street.
It’s scary for some people and they don’t want to have to face that every single time they go out to buy a loaf of bread. Semaj seems to be at some in-between point, where she doesn’t want to face the potential for phsyical violence on the street (at least, thats why she said she stopped dressing in women’s clothing) and yet does not want the indignity of being forced to identify as a guy every time she has to go pee. I don’t see a good reason why she should have to make that choice.
It just seems so odd that we are so concerned about how much other people that consider themselves women dress like women. I wore men’s clothes for a good chunk of my life, but nobody would mistake me for a guy. But lets say they did…am I less of a woman? Is being a woman less a part of my life? Should I be subject to harrasment for not making things more clear. Why are the trappings of womanhood so important to people? It seems so odd and forced to me.
And Semaj is obviously uncomfortable using the men’s bathrrom. Why should she have to be uncomfortable? It goes both ways.
We are apparently even getting in to arguments about freaking bearded ladies! Somebody insisted that we use our public restrooms to make intimate inqueries about people’s genitals- what about people who arn’t too sure? What if they have the wrong set of hormones? It all ain that easy. Any. I just don’t see why we need to insist that every with any ambiguity put on a nice clear gender mask before they get full rights to piss?
Fucking god we just got to the point that women could go out and about unattended. Now oyou want to turn the clock back on transgender folks when they have to do one of those things every single on of us has to do several times a day?
Anyway, it’s all so rediculous that we invest so much of ourselves in what gender other people are and how they choose to convey or not convey that. Why is it even your business? Can’t you let people live in peace without people threatening them all the time for something that is really totally unimportant?
Wow, that post was ugly. I guess I should cut back on the gin before posting. Sorry for all the errors.
Whose business is it what genitals someone has? If some stranger took it upon themself to demand to know what my genitals looked like, I would be pretty fucking annoyed.
Yeah, I know that, you will notice I said ‘and/or take hormones.’ My friends who don’t feel that they can pass as women still take hormones.
Women, whether trans or not, will generally have one or more out of a whole set of characteristics (such as voice, gait, etc) to identify the person as a woman. Someone who appears at first to be a guy might say something in a not terribly low register or move a certain way and undo that impression. Strangers can only go by what information is available to them, and in the case of Bogan, an initial shock is hard to avoid.
The masculine natal woman in your example would IMO be in a situation of a similar degree to that of a pre- or non-op M2F TS who was making an effort to pass for female, but with one difference: the former would be capable of pulling her pants down to show that she is “equipped” for the ladies’ room, ending the argument right there.
In a case like that, the average person would most likely consider the restrooms to ultimately boil down to sitting down vs. standing up. It isn’t fair, but that is a result of the ignorant/dangerous members of society because of which TS folks feel the need to avoid being outed. But then that prompts one to question the intention behind having separate rooms in the first place: if it’s between who uses a urinal and who doesn’t, that does not prevent a TS from using a stall, whereas if it’s a matter of who has messy bathroom habits then the only way to enforce that is to test everyone and issue licenses. :dubious:
Sitting v Standing
Some natal women stand to pee. Some men sit to pee. While I’d like to ban those that spray urine on the toilet seat and other places it doesn’t belong and then do not clean it up from any bathroom I use, that would leave many without a place to pee.
Equipment
I have never seen genitalia in a public restroom. What legitimate reason would I have to care? What about intersex individuals? What about pre-op transwomen whose genitalia which I won’t see is the only external indication of their birth gender? They probably do sit to pee and may even use a bit of tissue just to pass better. The only reason I can see to try to exclude these women from women’s rooms is bigoted spite.
External Appearance
We have a saying around my house, if A----- can pass, so can you. A----- is a natal woman of our aquaintance. I know this because she has given birth more than once. Neither her face or body are all that feminine, and she has quite noticable facial hair. While she chooses to dress in women’s clothes, I have known natal women who were even more mannish that did not. One natal woman I knew, a mother of three boys, who dressed in gender neutral clothing and went by a nickname that was masculine, and she had a mannish hairstyle. She chose to use the women’s room and no one bothered her. I don’t think it is right nor fair to say that natal women can use the restroom even if they don’t pass well as a woman, and say that non-natal women need to pass or at least try to pass in order to use the woman’s room. I can’t imagine that any reasonable person really wants to force natal women to look girly in order to use the women’s room.
People who harrass and behave disruptively (I’m talking to you squatting seat sprayers!) probably should lose their public bathroom privileges. Just using a restroom should not be considered disruptive.
If a non-natal woman isn’t trying to pass, then the average person has very little to go on to indicate that she is not a man. Leaving genitalia out of the picture, there are still subtle differences - body shape, hand size, facial features - that people subconsciously pick up on, which IME make it easier for natal women to be read as female without having to go to any lengths to look girly. (I have never seen your acquantaince A. nor the mother of 3, but I’ve also never seen a natal woman who looks like Semaj.) I agree, it isn’t fair, but from the opposite POV why have separate restrooms if just anybody can claim to be a woman and march right in.
There is a casino/resort in Las Vegas that has an RV park for its customers. I stayed there for a week and the facilities were the best I’ve seen probably anywhere, ever: they consist of a building with a hallway and 6 or 8 private rooms inside, each of which is a full toilet+shower+sink. There are no men’s or women’s signs on the doors, and the management has kept them in immaculate condition. Anybody can go into any room that isn’t occupied and use it without anyone questioning their gender. Personally, that is my utopian ideal.
Before transition, KellyM had more than one woman follow her to the mens room thinking they were following a woman to the women’s room. They were half right. I don’t think having separate restrooms is as important as fairness.
Semaj Bogan has (unwittingly, through choice of street clothes and outward appearance) aided and abetted those assigning a gender identity. Simply saying, “I think, therefore I am” may have been enough to put Descartes into the history books - but unfortunately doesn’t rise to the level where public restroom policies should be changed. I think we can all acknowledge there’s cruelty, ignorance & unfairness within our society - but the consequences of allowing any man who wants to use the ladies room simply because they ‘feel like it’ outweighs any benefit from removing genital, hormone or appearance parameters.
Here’s an idea: choice! A men’s room, one for the girls too, and one for everybody! Their specifications I will leave to your imagination, but I think choosing between these is much better than forcing anyone to use either one.
This is my memory of reading about a case sometime in the mid 80’s in southern California.
There were two women at a concert who got hassled for using the women’s room. They were bodybuilders and if I remember the pictures correctly, they both could have passed for young men. I have no idea how they were dressed at the concert. Apparently they were accosted by security because women were complaining that men were using the women’s restroom. One woman had ID with her (I assume a driving license, as that usually states gender) and was released from security. The other woman, in spite of her and her friend’s insistence that she was a woman, was taken to the med-tent (er, big concerts often have a first-aid tent in case people have problems) where a security guy made her drop trousers and prove it. She did. Both of the women sued someone…I can’t remember who probably the concert arena, since it was their security guys and that’s how the story ended up in the news.
As I previously stated, I wear men’s clothes almost all the time. I’m not sure what I would do if other women started reacting badly when I walked into the Women’s room. I suppose I would start trying to find the one-room “family stations”.
IMHO, lots of women dress like men. Very few men dress like women. It would take very little effort on the part of most men to dress as a woman because the “rules” of clothing are so much looser. Still IMHO, if a non-intentionally-trans individual is truly not identifiable as one gender or another, they should use the restrooms of their natal sex. Why would they use the other?
Why? We haven’t gotten anywhere yet. As far as I can tell, there are four ways to determine who will use what washroom.
There is genital sex, which it’s incredibly rude (and illegal) to demand that someone prove.
There is legal gender, which again leads to terrible problems if someone doesn’t look the same as the gender on their papers.
There is (other people’s evaluation of) gender presentation, which, if it mustn’t be forced on non-trans people (as I showed), it shouldn’t be forced on trans people.
The only thing that’s left is that we take someone’s word for what gender they are. Why don’t we treat perverse behaviour when it arises? Someone sauntering in, using the bathroom, washing their hands, and sauntering back out is completely harmless, regardless of their gender. Someone loitering in a bathroom is loitering, regardless of their gender.
Incidentally, did we all miss this?
So you’re saying it’s nobody’s business to police who has a right to be in there unless they cause disruptive behavior. I can agree to that.
I took it to mean safety outside the restroom as much as or more than inside it. 
Yeah. I just meant a lot of people were acting as though she was dressing as a guy specifically to shit-disturb.
(Not that it would affect our argument whether she was dressing as a guy because she had to or because she simply wanted to - just that people were acting as though she somehow couldn’t make up her mind or was being intentionally obstreperous by dressing as a guy, or some such nonsense.)
That completely ignores the comfort level of the other people using the restroom. Which I suppose might be OK except for one thing- why is this person who physically is male, and dresses like a male using the women’s room in the first place? Presumably because of discomfort using the men’s room. Why should all of the women in the ladies room care about Semaj’s comfort when the reverse is clearly not true? Now enforcing a policy of who uses the ladies room and who uses the men’s room might be impossible, but taking someone’s word for which gender they are makes no sense. If someone is who is physically male and dresses like a male must be allowed to use the women’s room because the person claims to be female, then we might as well just get rid of the idea of gender segregated restrooms altogether.
Of course, there is another reason for using the ladies room-
I don’t think anyone thinks she was being intentionally obstreperous by dressing as a guy- but that could be the reason for using the ladies room while dressed as a guy. After all, had Semaj used the men’s room. did the handwashing and walked out, we wouldn’t be having this conversation because there would have been no newspaper article.
Maybe she uses the women’s room because she feels safer there, and it corresponds to what she feels is her gender? It seems like violence would be more likely in a men’s room than in the women’s room. Semaj may hace characteristics that would draw attention in a men’s room, characteristics that may provoke some men to want to “kick her sissy ass.”
As long as she does nothing other than use the facilities, washes her hands and leaves, I think she should allowed to use the restroom she chooses.