Seriously, though, for the present, the problem with your argument is that
we’ve seen that their body is irrelevant because it’s not anyone’s business — to ask someone to justify their physical sex is both highly illegal and highly rude;
we’ve seen that dressing like a male is irrelevant – nobody argues that nontrans women who dress as men should be prevent from using the women’s room.
What’s left? What’s left is that when a trans woman using the women’s room is mistaken for a man, she responds the same way a non-trans woman does: “Excuse me, I am a woman!” and continues her business unmolested.
Polite society does not demand that other people justify their gender.
But dresses like a guy + has a penis != is safe in the men’s. All you’re going by is this little photo on the NYP website. Remember, she was in transition before she had to halt it for outside reasons. As far as I can tell, she has a pretty ambiguous appearance at this point. (She doesn’t look much butcher than a lot of women I know.) It’s entirely plausible a man might read her as a woman, or (worse) “some kinda queer tranny freak!”
So, those in favor of multi-sex bathrooms wouldn’t mind if their 12 year old daughter went to the bathroom surrounded by strange men? If a man turns around from the urinal with his johnson hanging out, no problem?
How would you feel if you were in the bathroom using the toilet in a particularly smelly way and the man of your dreams who you’ve been flirting with for the last month walked in? Or perhaps you’re dabbing makeup over a large pimple when the guy you’re interested in walks in?
And I also think the pervert/predator thing would be a real problem. These clowns who take ‘upskirt’ photos with cameras in their shoes are going to have a field day in the bathroom with the ladies.
Frankly, I LIKE gender roles. I think it’s healthy that we retain some mystery about the opposite sex. I think we should have our small areas where we can seperate so we can feel more comfortable doing our various ablutions. And when I take my 8 year old daughter to the mall, I like knowing that when I send her into the bathroom alone, I don’t have to worry about whether or not there is some sick male waiting inside, hoping to catch a glimpse of a little girl’s panties - or worse.
Isn’t it a fact that men are more predatory than females? I see many mothers taking their sons into female restrooms, but no father taking his daughter into a mans room.
Of course, someone will try to belittle your argument by saying “What about female predators? What if a man dresses like a woman with the sole intent of taking the pictures? Huh, punk? HUH?”. :rolleyes: Let’s see them try.
Like I said, when in the mall, for all you people bitching about it, you could have:
I don’t think anyone’s disputing that. But I wish you wouldn’t dismiss the concerns of some of us women, who pointed that some predators may then be able to troll the women’s restrooms for victims.
Would trans people be forced to use the “everyone” toilet in this scenario? If so, I don’t think that’s a very good solution. If anything, it might make some trans people even more uncomfortable; instead of a masculine trans woman being forced to use the men’s room, where she might pass for a man if she’s lucky and avoid violence, she has to go to the “little freak’s room,” and make her transgenderism even more apparent. If anything, there’d be even more violence in the everyone room, as bigots (assuming that natal men and women were allowed to use the room as well) wait in hiding for a chance to attack transexuals. I think I might be for this idea if trans and gender-variant people were allowed to use the binary rooms (whichever they felt comfortable in) but were also given the option of using the everyone room, along with everyone else. They already have something similar with “family rooms” that are open to both men and women, but you have to have a child to use one of them.
You have to have a child to use family rooms? That is outrageous. I think that disallowing loitering in restrooms generally is far better a remedy to predators than to say that some women who don’t look feminine enough can’t use the women’s restrooms.
You’ll have to excuse me, I stopped reading your post after this (yes, one sentence). No, not because I’m a mean bully, but because that is not what I meant. Reading this thread, it’s clear the majority of posters agree on a unisex restroom, for everyone to use. Ok, fine, but I’m not comfortable with the idea and I should not be forced to use one. So, to solve this problem and more (read: sexual predators, daughters, etc.) you can have two kinds. The “gendered” ones for those who feel uncomfortable in the “ungendered” bathrooms, and the unisex rooms the majority seems to be rooting for.
In the case of trans people, they get to choose where they feel more comfortable with. It’s my belief (as in “has nothing to do with a rigorous scientific study”) that women who came to this world as a men and viceversa, with no procedures done, would generally tend to use the unisex rooms. Many of the trans who follow Matt’s thinking would agree with “why should my sex matter?” and step in those. Others who have had bad experiences at their dread designated places will use them as well. That’s my belief, but of course, they get to choose freely where to go and really insecure people like me will be happy.
You may like gender roles, but they don’t work out so great for a lot of people. This doesn’t include the people raped, beaten, robbed or otherwise harmed simply for not standing up to someone else’s gender norms. There is something fucked up about how we view gender, and it currently kills people. Here are 21 of the people killed last year. Look at how they died. Look at the sentences given to the killers. You’ve got an eight year old daughter. If for some reason she decides she’s a boy, is this how you want her life to go?
Sure, you say, just repress it and don’t transition and pretend. It’s better than being killed, right? Nope. The suicide rate for pre-transitioned transgendered people is around 20%.
Your daughter probably knows what gender she is by this point, but each of these people was somebody’s beloved child. This isn’t about making some point. This is a matter of life or death. I wouldn’t walk in to a restroom full of people known for beating and killing me. Would you?
And, you do realize that with a unisex bathroom you could acompany your eight year old daughter, right?
I would have a HUGE problem with this man being in the restroom with me. I don’t care if he identifies as female. His outward appearance is male, and that’s all I have to go by.
When I’m using the bathroom, I’m pretty much at my most vulnerable. I’m half-dressed, performing biological functions, and not in much position to run or defend myself. On a personal note, I get creeped out when a man comes into a public restroom I’m in for any reason.
I think that if you have a huge problem sharing a restroom with someone who is no way misusing the restroom, then you should own the problem and deal with it, not make another person deal with it. I am sure that a lot of whites had huge problems sharing restrooms with those perceived and non-whites in the days of segregation, and when segregation ended, they were very upset at the change. I am sure that some were like Guinastasia and were just afraid that predators would somehow take advantage of the opportunity, and that others just had a problem sharing facilities with non-whites.
When I was first dating KellyM we went to Indianapolis for the day. She was still self-conscious about how well she passed, and aware that laws in Indiana were not favorable for her using a single sex public restroom. Trying to find a unisex restroom was not easy and finally we went out of our way to a mall she knew had a family restroom. Luckily they did not seem to have the policy that one had to have had a child to use the restroom. Out of solidarity, I waited to use the restroom until we found one she could use. My bladder was so full it was painful. We planned the rest of the weekend around going back to the hotel to pee. Based on that weekend, I think that no one should be in the position of being forced to use unisex restrooms and that forcing them before unisex restrooms are quite common is cruel.
That weekend she was taking pains to pass, wearing makeup and unmistakably women’t clothing. She wore a girdle to hide her figure flaws and breast forms to add some figure. She did pass. Now on weekends when we go out, she is often in tee shirts and jeans, no bra, and no makeup. No effort goes toward passing, tell me, should she use the men’s room now?
I do wonder what restrooms y’all want intersexed people to use.
In my mind, the question asked by the OP (and the one raised by the Post article) has nothing to do with transsexuals (and I hope that’s the right word; I wouldn’t want to appear insensitive) trying to pass as women.
The man in the article only claims to be transgendered. He is not taking any hormones, makes no effort to dress or behave as a woman, and apparently has no intention of doing either. When I meet someone for the first time, I have no idea of his or her inner motivations, problems, thoughts, feelings, or anything. In this case, had the man in the Post Article been in the restroom with me, I wouldn’t have known he claimed to be transgendered, and under those conditions, probably wouldn’t have cared. I would have perceived him as a man in the wrong place, period.
And in my mind, they have no business being in the women’s room.
So the objection against Semaj is that she (NB: SHE not he) had a seemingly male presentation? Are we all agreed that a female presentation would remove the problem?
MsRobyn, please address matt mcl’s question: if you saw a genetic woman with a masculine face, dressed in male clothes, would you give her a pass, or object to her?
matt has been doing most of the heavy lifting in this thread for my team, and I just want to thank you, matt. You truly rock. Thanks to KellyM and lee for explaining what it’s like for real people to try to get through life transgendered.
When I read the comments that some of you could never accept Semaj as a woman, I feel very, very sad. I know that my own female presentation is lacking and I’m frankly terrified of the world at large. Please keep in mind that the transwoman is far more scared of you than you are of her. At least that’s true of me, speaking for myself. I feel scared to be me, every time I’m out alone. I have not even attempted to use a ladies’ room yet. Even though I take great care with my female presentation, I’m painfully aware that it isn’t good enough. How the hell am I supposed to exist in this world?
Given that I am a woman with a somewhat masculine appearance, and who is given to wearing T-shirts and jeans most of the time, yes, I am likely to give that person a pass.
However, and I am repeating myself: We only have Semaj’s word that he is transgendered. He is not taking steps to pass as a woman. Were he doing that, such as taking hormones or even making an attempt to dress as a woman, I’d give him a pass. Until then, we have someone who claims to be transgendered. Understand the difference?
So, wait, we’re supposed to take your word for it when you don’t make any real effort to dress like a woman, but we’re not supposed to take Semaj’s word for it? How are we to distinguish between a masculine-appearing natal woman and a masculine-appearing transwoman? Genital checks at the door? Birth certificate checks (oh, wait, those are amendable in 47 states, that won’t work)? Barr body tests (oops, what about AIS females)?
Sounds to me like you are asking for special rights for yourself.
In thirty years of using men’s restrooms I can’t recall seeing any penises other than my own. (This obviously doesn’t count communal showers or locker rooms.)
Personally, I think that’s just a reflection of the “predators are everywhere” myth that is perpetuated to control women. That myth is pretty well internalized at this point, though, so very few people are willing to actually confront it and consider whether it’s valid or not. Pity.
I completely agree and support you and so do a lot of other transpeople. Just wanted to let you know.
Again, transgendered people who don’t want to have the operation are rare. But I don’t know any transgendered person who doesn’t want to have the operation and doesn’t take medication. I don’t think that Semaj is transgendered and neither do several of my transgendered friends.
It is very easy to tell the difference between a natal woman and Semaj. I support unisex bathrooms but until they exist, I think Semaj should use the men’s restroom.
[quote=kimera]
I don’t think that Semaj is transgendered and neither do several of my transgendered friends.
[/quote[
Did you read what I quoted above? It’s not her choice not to cross-live or take hormones. She’s what we call a gender refusenik:
Really? I know many natal women who look much like Semaj. There is also the question of demeanour - a “man” who is very gender-ambiguous may well not be safe in the men’s.
As I’ve pointed out, we take everyone else’s word for what gender they are.
Even if someone has a voice like a foghorn and a face like W.C. Fields, if she introduces herself as Ms. Smith, polite society doesn’t demand a pussy check before calling her Ms. Smith.
