Except that he doesn’t introduce himself as Ms. anything.
Look. It may be someone’s right to define their own gender, but it’s my right to be uncomfortable when people like Ms. Bogan enter the bathroom. OK?
Robin
Nope. Not even close.
Answer this one: Is it okay for a feminine-appearing man to use the men’s room? Sure it is. Should these men be asked to use the ladies’ room? No.
FTR, there was a photo of “Ms. Bogan” attached to the Post article. If I’d seen her in the women’s room, I’d scream in fright, because my first thought is “pervert”, not “transwoman”. Perhaps this is reflective of my own social conditioning, but when my panties are around my ankles, sensitivity isn’t the first thing on my mind.
Robin
Uncomfortable? Surely. It’s your right to be uncomfortable if a butch-looking non-trans woman enters the bathroom, too. But trans people need to pee unmolested.
Right, it’s the same principle. A feminine-appearing man uses the men’s, because he identifies as a man. A feminine-appearing transman would also use the men’s. Just like a masculine-appearing transwoman uses the women’s.
(Or, of course, we could quit tying ourselves up in knots, and have non-gendered bathrooms… isn’t it funny how we can go around in circles and still be convinced the obvious solution is somehow impossible even though it’s already being done?)
From cross-dressing. What about the hormones? Besides Semaj is 19, legally an adult. Most of my transfriends parents are very anti their children’s to the point of kicking them out of their house. For my friends, their urge to correct their biological inconsistancies is more important than the acceptance of their parents. If Semaj was 18 or under and intended on getting the surgery than I would be more accepting. Some of my transgendered friends said the same thing as I did. Most of them said they thought Semaj was being ridiculous.
I think you are being overly generous. Then again, I have a lot of transgendered friends, so I know what to look for.
Yes, but I don’t think that we should allow people so obviously masculine to use the female restrooms because of the male on female violence rate and that fact that most females don’t feel comfortable.
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You don’t have to trot out “your transgendered friends” to justify your viewpoint, since there are a number of trans people in this thread who disagree with them.
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It’s nice to know that you consider yourself so apt to judge someone’s gender on the basis of their medical decisions, which are none of your business anyway.
Because I have non-trans women friends who look similar to the picture in the article? How does that make me generous? And in any case, why does her appearance matter in a way that a non-trans woman’s appearance doesn’t?
And I don’t think we get to accost people while they’re trying to pee to relieve other people’s fear of being accosted while they’re trying to pee.
If she’s loitering, throw her out. If she’s taking photos, arrest her. If she’s peeing, leave her the fuck alone. It’s unbelievable how people think it’s open season on trans people’s bodies.
(Christ, I’m glad I’m not trans. All this tsouris just to pee? If some business establishment told me I couldn’t pee in their bathroom, I’d offer to go in the lobby.)
In all my years of having to use the men’s restroom, I’ve never had a problem with being harrassed or threatened. This is not to say that I am not concerned for my safety in there. Although I identify as a female person inside, based on appearance alone strangers “read” me as male. Semaj is in a similar position of not being able to present as female (but for different reasons: family rather than finances) and IMO she is being a little bit ridiculous, for the reason that people can only base their reactions on what information is available to them - in this case, appearance. Nobody can reasonably be expected to see at first glance that she is not a man.
Agreed. She’s making one choice and I’m making the other. Both should be left alone, but the fact is that her choice is likely to lead to being told “use the other restroom.”
Haha, I’d be tempted to tell them that too. 
I get uncomfortable with the concept that others think they can rule on someone’s trans authenticity without even knowing her. Like it’s a club and we can vote to exclude you if you don’t measure up.
Hey, I admit Semaj’s non-female presentation makes this a difficult case and there are no easy answers. This sort of case that prompts us to figure out boundaries that hadn’t been previously thought out before, is important for that reason. Society hasn’t even gotten around to accepting gays yet — give gays another ten years, I’m guessing — and then society may begin to deal with trans. Until then, we have to get used to being looked on with suspicion everywhere we go as outcasts and potential criminals. So what — African-Americans endured centuries of that in this country. If you went into a store and you were black, they followed you around.
I would wish to have the situation of someone like umop ap!sdn or me settled — those of us who want to be accepted as real women but haven’t been able to get a satisfactory female presentation. But if our rights can be won by someone with no female presentation at all, then I guess we’re in free. I concede the Bogan case is a tough one. Is it in our collective interest as trans people to support her? Yes, I think it is. Could she damage our cause? Doesn’t matter. We have to support her. But we have to be realistic that her case is unusually difficult.
“Gender refusenik”? matt, I love hanging around you, I always learn so many useful phrases from you! That one hits the mark all right. I feel like a gender refusenik too, at least the part of the time that I’m forced into a male presentation against my will. So far I have been able to jailbreak out of gender prison only temporarily. The day I use a ladies’ room will be a significant milestone on my gender journey.
It really is a mistake to think that trans acceptance has anything to do with gay acceptance, especially as far as what people can accept in laws. It has long been preached by The Human Rights Commission, a.k.a. the enemy, that you could not do trans rights just yet, first get gay rights and then later you can work on trans. They have gone so far as refusing to support legislation that mentions trans rights, yet now trans rights are passing along with similar gay rights. In Illinois the legislation was rewritten to make it more clearly support the rights of transsexuals, and it passed.
The whole idea of transsexuality is quite alien to most people, but the goals of transsexuals are not threatening or especially attractive either, and that seems to work to the benefit of trans people in crafting legislation. The usual goal of the transsexual is to live his or her life as a person of the sex they feel themselves to be. They don’t need anyone else to be transsexual for them to be happy. They don’t want to be highly visible as transsexuals, so they aren’t rubbing anyone’s noses in it, after their first visible transition. Many even do their best to make that invisible making a complete break from their old life. Most transsexuals probably would be quite happy if we found a way to prevent transsexuality in the future. Transsexuals don’t even band together. Also, there are not a whole lot of sermons being given on it, in comparison with homosexuality. There are fewer people that are transsexual so personal negative interactions are fewer. The whole process, which involves castration, is not something that it tempting for most people. In contrast, being gay sounds fun, doesn’t have a high entrance cost, and is preached against on a regular basis.
Legislation that makes it illegal to discriminate against transsexuals as transsexuals is difficult to view as the only thing preventing rampant transsexuality. The question, “Am I gay?” haunts some people. The question, “Am I transsexual?” is less haunting because it is often much easier to answer. It is fairly easy to notice that your teen age son is horny as hell and from there envision him wanting to have sex with anything that moves and from there “realize” that if he decides that guys are nice to have sex with then he will never want to date women and give you grandchildren. It is less easy to imagine him wanting his testicles removed. I think it is impossible to make that seem much more attractive with legislation.
Semaj, in contrast to most transsexuals, is asking to do something that is a continuing reminder of her difference from the norm. I don’t think we can in fairness treat her any differently than any other transsexual woman and I don’t think it is right to treat transsexual women differently than you do natal women under the law.
The thing is, how the fuck am I supposed to know if Semaj is a transwoman or a man with some kind of fetish, or just some pervert? All I know is what I see. So if I see what I perceive to be a MAN, then I have no right to be uncomfortable or wary?
A man in the woman’s restroom is not usually in there. Yes, things that are unusual happen all the time, and that doesn’t make them bad. But my inner alarm would immediately go off, and I wouldn’t feel comfortable in there. Remember-I have NO way of knowing that this person is a transgendered individual. All I know is, there’s a man in my space, and I don’t know why. He could be a she pre-op, or he could be a predator. And sorry, but my safety and well-being shouldn’t be compromised just so I don’t hurt someone’s feelings. I’d definitely leave the room, or feel very frightened.
No matter how you slice it (n.p.i.), that’s what this issue comes down to. Give that lady a cigar…and a can of mace.
But wait – assume she’s using the bathroom. What are you going to see? Either nothing (because she’s in the stall) or her washing her hands (so obviously she’s using the bathroom), right? I mean, correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems as though you wouldn’t have time to be comfortable. Most people in a public bathroom don’t spend their time loitering in public view.
Of course you have a “right” to feel uncomfortable. You would have a “right” to feel uncomfortable if she was sitting next to you in the food court. But I think you’re exaggerating the extent of the circumstances that could lead you to suffer this discomfort.
There are a lot of people I don’t like sharing a restroom with: gum popping teens who shout to each other loudly, people spraying hairspray and other chemicals into the air, those who reek, mothers screaming at their children to PEE NOW DAMMIT YOU CAN PEE YOU DO IT IN YOUR PANTS OFTEN ENOUGH! I back out of the bathroom and wait for them to clear. They always seem to clear off in a reasonable time. If they were to loiter, I may well report them to management, but I have never had to do that. Why can’t this situation be solved similarly?
I didn’t read the whole thread, only parts, so if this is a repeat, sorry.
As a natal female that dresses androgynously (jeans and tshirts) I’m OFTEN mistaken for a man in many many situations, including bathrooms. I’ve been called sir so many times in my life that I’ve lost count, due to short hair. How they miss my giant knockers, I’ll never know.
People are embarrassed, chagrined, some blush and walk away when they call me ‘sir’, some people apologize, etc. This goes to the earlier discussion by matt (iirc) about “what if a non-trans butch woman…etc”. It does happen, at least once a month, to me.
I do so for numerous reasons. In these threads normally the supporters accuse the people on the other side of being anti-transsexual. You do so yourself with your “It’s unbelievable how people think it’s open season on trans people’s bodies.” comment.
I want to show that you can be completely supportive of transgendered people’s rights as much as possible and still think that Semaj is going about this situation the wrong way.
I also want to let other people know that not all transgendered individuals agree with what Semaj is doing.
I’ve studied this subject in quite detail and I know a lot of GIDNOS people. Semaj is not transsexual because transsexuals have a high desire to become the ‘opposite’ sex even through manners that most of us would find horrific. Semaj, depending on the experts you talk to would either be defined as transgendered and/or genderqueer. Although some people commonly use transgenderedness to refer to anyone who isn’t transsexual but doesn’t fit into ‘typical’ gender expression, there are several who divide transgenderedness and genderqueer. Semaj fits into the category of what I call genderqueer. I just did a search online and I see that some consider it transgendered, but I had always heard that transgendered refered to individuals with GID and genderqueer referred to those with GIDNOS.
See, the thing that we disagree on is how valid that fear is. I think that those women’s fears are very valid. The right of the individual must not impress upon the safety of others. You need to decide if you risk more transgendered people being injured because of violence against them or if you risk the possiblity of violence against women or discomfort of women in what is considered by our society to be a very private place.
You feel that the risk of damage to a transsexual is greater but I feel that the risk of women’s safety is greater. Instead of concentrating on making bathrooms unisex or allowing people to use whatever bathroom they feel like using I think we should concentrate on
- either making all bathrooms single stall or making a family option available
- working on decreasing violence against transsexuals in the first place
Those are the two goals I am working on and I think those goals are both realistic and most importantly, do not threaten anyone else’s safety or sense of comfort.
A lot of people don’t understand the transgendered issue and full rights and acceptance are a LONG way off. Pushing issues like these will hurt rather than help transsexuals IMHO. I think that the two options I have outlined above will work much better.
Comparing a restroom with a food court is comparing apples and oranges. I expect to see different people in a public place; men, women, children, black, white, Asian. OTOH, restrooms are private. I do not expect to see a biological male in the women’s restroom. Hence my (and I suspect a lot of others’) discomfort with Ms. Bogan’s presence.
Robin
But what does it mean to see a biological male in the restroom, short of her whipping it out?
I didn’t argue that she was transsexual according to my definition (and I fail to see the relevance of your or my definition as applies to her, anyway).
What is certain is she identifies as a woman; that she has, until recently, been crossdressing and taking hormones; that she is currently crossliving to some extent; and that she has sufficient reason to want to use the women’s that she’s prepared to be humiliated in the New York Post over it.
Here’s a question, then: do we allow straight men to exclude gay men from the locker room, for fear they (the straight men) might be raped? That’s a fear a lot of straight men have, associated with people who are potentially attracted to them in their private space looking at their naked asses.
It’s a little absurd, true, but do you see my point? I realize that women are uncomfortable having their gender perceptions startled by a person they perceive as male in their bathroom. The point is, I don’t think that’s a valid reason to exclude a trans woman from the bathroom any more than it would be to exclude a non-trans woman.
I agree with you that the best options are to work towards accessible, non-gendered bathrooms for everyone, and against violence against trans people. For the present, though, Semaj still needs to pee.
Yes, from the little I know of her situation, if I was in that position I would probably use the men’s, just to avoid the tsouris everyone seems determined to heap on her. Apparently, though, she has some compelling reason to use the women’s, and this is a little far to go just to shit-disturb. If nothing else, her case points out the glaring flaw in the gendered-bathroom system, which I’m relieved to see you agree with me about.
You know, maybe I’m getting into Great Debates territory here, but what does it mean to be male or female or… a monkey? Yeah, laugh, but what you and many others in this thread are suggesting, even if it is unintentional, is that we’re basically all the same, that gender roles are looney, and that if there is discomfort, perhaps we should unisex it! Hell, wanting to know if someone’s either male or female should be a crime and it’s worse than racism.
Yes, I’m exaggerating. No one actually said that, but if you extend certain arguments, one question keeps popping, inevitably: what the hell is male/female? How does someone who is apparently female “feel” like a man? How does she/he know that? When I ask this question, or I’ve seen it posted, the recurrent answer I get is “How would you feel if one day you wake up in a woman’s body?”. Other than be shocked and do some… things, well, I don’t know how I would feel. I think I’d miss being a guy. But, there’s the problem. In this hypothetical case, I’ve already been a guy, while a trans doesn’t have that in his life resume.
Am I getting sidetracked, what does it all have to do with anything? Everything. Why do, better yet, should trans people behave or dress like the “gender” they feel like? Who says that women wear lipstick and use skirts? That’s bullshit. Women aren’t born with earings attached, they don’t instinctively wear bras (cite: National Geographic). Why should a trans woman (and if I’m writing it correctly I mean a supposed guy who is in fact a girl) dress and wear make-up? She shouldn’t! Then, what is being female? I give trans people the benefit of the doubt, given that I believe brains work differently according to sex and that they intuitively know they’re not like the people who share that cromosome with them. On another note, I’m skeptical of people like a woman (a man inside) I saw on a Discovery Channel special in which she was shown being treated with hormone therapy and only after months of treatment did her brain change into “male mode”. But again, benefit of doubt, their life, their problem: fine by me.
I’m not trying to open a can’o’whoopass by opening this can of worms, but I do hope that the people who think we’re basically genderless, in the cases this thread deals with, also give some thought to the idea that it’s nearly impossible to define humanity and to define each sex. If I can’t define what I am, how can I expect others to be able to do it for me? Also, you have to take into account that there is a protocol that society follows, norms/rules that for all purposes have been established by society at large, from not picking your nose in public to drinking your ass out when watching “the game”. Some of these are stupid, indeed, and others may be harmful and inhumane. I don’t think we’re dealing with inhumanity as we know it here. We’re dealing with something new to us and that is very complex. No, it’s not about who’s trans and who’s not, it’s about who we are and we don’t know that. We can play Socrates all we want, but just know that after we’ve made the question, there’s another one, right in front of us, who’s up to no good.