A memory about how easy it is to scan video footage came to me. Years ago I used to record a Chinese channel 24/7 in the hope of finding news about my favorite long retired Taiwanese actress. My DVR at the time allowed me to fast forward through the recordings at 32X. While scanning through a couple of days of recordings, I finally caught a news report of this actress. She appeared on screen for less than a minute in a really old commercial she did, which at 32X meant I had ~2 seconds and a few frames to recognize that it was her. But I did because I was focused on looking for her.
Even without software assistance, it’s really easy to catch movement in an otherwise empty hallway.
Well, yes, exactly my point - that’s a violation of both fire code and common sense. Yet it happened and people died as a result. Someone valued “security” over common sense.
I help run a community center and smart locks are amazing for that purpose. We can give folks permission to open the lock for specific time periods (from five minutes to five… centuries?). After that, they are locked out. No need to provide access to a physical key, no need to gather a physical key and no danger that they may copy the key for illegal entry later. These advantages vastly compensate for the <1% of the time that the power is out and people need access or they don’t have a smartphone or whatever else random concern people have raised on this board.
Yeah, it’s a bummer for people who don’t like/have smartphones, but the world is gonna move on. Sorry.
Here’s a bit about using a camera even in your own home. Note audio requires written consent from anyone being recorded, and basically using the video for anything but your own records without permission of those filmed runs into legal issues.
Here’s a whole article on landlord use of security cameras. Note public areas are typically ok.
This new York times article explains that pointing a camera at a tenants door could be considered illegal surveillance if it happens to capture images of the interior when the door is opened.
The right to know who and for what was something I was told by a skyrise manager idk if i can find that.
Of course some of this is not explicit but implicit.
If I set a camera in the driveway to my trailer park I’m fine. If I set it up In that one girls frontyard and point it at her door I open myself up to a harassment case if I don’t have some just reason. Just as if anyone else did the same thing.
Of course lastly any interior cameras of course are violating reasonable expectation of privacy.
“Changing the locks on their own, turning off utilities, or locking a tenant out of the property because the tenant did something the landlord did not agree with.”
I don’t see how this is any different than the changing the lock to a different type (e.g. the type that has a bunch of divets on the side) and requiring you to pay a fee for the new key. As long as they alert you of the change, it seems perfectly legal. Installing a electronic lock that REQUIRES a smartphone (which as I said will likely have a keypad also)., it still doesn’t violate the rule above as long as it’s not retaliation for something the tenant did.
As for security cameras, all the ones I’ve ever seen are mounted at the ends of the hall, not directly facing someone’s door. If by some chance, the tenant installs a mirror directly inside the doorway and that causes the camera to see a reflection of the inside, that seems to fall on the tenant, not the landlord. Also, the links about security cameras heavily side with the landlord’s right to install them with the only gray area being if it accidentally or more importantly deliberately catches the inside of the tenant’s apartment/home.
A while back, because the gate to the second floor parking was damaged, we received a notice that security cameras would be installed inside the parking areas and the front entrance (which is secured). Whether they really were installed or not doesn’t matter to me, because I’m not doing anything that would require review of the footage. If I happen to accidentally drop trou in the parking garage, no biggie as I’m in a public (to the tenants) area.
But if you’re up for it you can move into one of my places and I’ll change tge lock every week and charge you $50 for a key and make an extra $200 a month from you, I’ve got plenty of spares.
Eh, I’m not feeling the outrage. “Oh Noes, my landlord can track when I come and go!!” So what? If you think your landlord is out to use this information for nefarious purposes, you probably have bigger problems. I guess a certain segment of the population is just going to resist any and all technological advances.
Personally, I’d be thrilled if my landlord installed electronic locks. One less thing I need to leave the house with and carry around.
I’d like to know more about the app on my phone. Does it have access to other information on my phone, like GPS or my contact list or my browser history? Not that I’m paranoid or anything…
I believe at least a part of the concern is that 3d parties could hack the system, being able to tell when you are home or not. And potentially hack through the electronic lock as well.
Android and iOS will both let you know what permissions an app needs, and in most cases you can deny them. Of course some apps will refuse to work if they aren’t given permissions that aren’t necessary for their core function. For example, I have had some apps which want access to contacts so it can share stuff from the app, but the app then refuses to work, even though I don’t want to use the sharing feature.
Another part of the problem comes when necessary permissions are tied to unnecessary permissions, which the app can then use in undesired ways. For example, at least on Android, bluetooth low energy (as would likely be used for a bluetooth key) requires location permission to be enabled. So now the app can send your location to the lock cloud. The linking of bluetooth, wifi, and location permissions isn’t completely arbitrary, in that an app allowed to scan bluetooth or wifi can use what it finds, along with online databases, to get a location. So, explicit acknowledgement that the app has location permission is reasonable. Of course, now the app can report where you are all the time, instead of when you’re just standing next to your lock.
I have been working in this field for 40 years. It is HIGHLY unlikely that the smart phones do anything more than provide an interface to the system. There are security concerns, but if they use https and certificates, TLS 1.2 etc, they are likey to be OK.
BTW, these systems usually integrate with FA system (for example, power to mag locks drop out if Fire Alarm)
The locks themselves are are not “smart” in the sense they are an output device controlled by a controller. Controller could theoretically be a point of entry, but not the lock.
from the tech moron standpoint … can I turn the location part on and off when I am home and getting ready to unlock the door? Does it have to be enabled 24/7?
So where’s the liability when a hacker breaks into the system, scans the logs, and uses the information to schedule times to rob each place when the tenant is away from home?
For a community centre, sure, it makes perfect sense- keeping track of who goes in and out is a valid thing to do, and if there’s a problem, they can’t get in to the centre. No big deal.
Not quite the same for a house, is it? Being unable to get in to your own home is a far bigger inconvenience, and there’s no benefit to this system for the actual tenant. Any benefit is for the landlord.
And yes, smartphones are pretty ubiquitous, but when my last one stopped working, I didn’t get a replacement for a few weeks, while I shopped around. That would have been a huge problem if I had to use one to get into my house.
Imagine losing your phone, when it’s also your only house key. What do you do?
You raise some fair concerns, but I think there’s a decent answer for most of them:
Unable to enter your home. What about a simple keypad? Now, I don’t know if they all have this function, but ours does. The homeowner could have a code to enter the house if they don’t have their phone on them.
No benefits for the tenant? What about never needing a key? Never needing to fish around in your pocket? Some smart locks activate when you approach the door and you never even need to take your phone out. What about the absence of old keys that could allow folks to enter your place? I mean, many people are buying these devices for themselves. Heck, I bought one for my home. There’s obviously a benefit to tenants.
No smartphone? For a few days/weeks, hopefully there’s a keypad. I guess there would be a pretty good argument to REQUIRE a backup keypad for renters.
Losing your smartphone. Arguments regarding smartphone loss/lack of power/etc are basically the same arguments that could be made in 1919. What if you lose your house key? Yes, it’s a bummer. If you know that losing your smartphone means you can’t (easily) get into your home, look after your smartphone, just like you look after your key.
I also love the paranoia of some hacker gaining entry to the open/close logs of smart locks. You mean the same ability that any motivated burglar has always had? By, you know, hanging around and observing things? People don’t need to hack some database to get into your home. They just need to be sufficiently motivated to break the social contract and know how to break a window.
The only real advantage anyone has suggested is that you can use it to allow other people access at restricted times- I get that that could be useful for someone who bought it themselves, but is that something a renter would be able to use? More likely, the tenant would be granted access, but they need to check with the landlord if they can temporarily allow anyone else access to water the plants or just to stay over for a few days (short of loaning the friend their phone or otherwise giving them full access to the account).
My current place is really nice, but I’ve had very bad landlord experiences before (hiring friends to do repairs who then let themselves into my bedroom while I was out, when they were supposed to be painting the outside wall, and when I complained declaring that they’d either do what the hell they liked or they’d stop getting the boiler and things fixed). I could easily see landlords in areas with renter competition adding a charge to allow temporary access to anyone but the tenant. It’s not usually practical for a landlord to police guests currently, but with this sort of stuff it’d not take long before someone tries to charge extra because there was clearly an extra person there last weekend.
Incidentally, we have a code entry to the rental place I live in- at least to the common areas- you can tell which numbers are part of the code by just looking at the fingerprints and dirt pattern, even though it does get cleaned. It’s fine for the communal bit, but I don’t think I’d want one for my actual flat (though I’m sure you could get an app that messages you if an incorrect code was used, with pictures, or something).