I have only scant knowlege of the Bible, and was curious as to the last known act attributed to God, the number of witnesses, etc. FTR, I do not mean sunsets and babies being born, but actual “hand of God” intervention in human affairs. Also, does the Bible have any instances direct human/God contact? And again, could someone provide insight as to the nature of the contact, witnesses, etc.?
I’m not by any means a scholar either, I know just enought to back up my world view, you could say. The only ‘hot God and Man action’ that comes to mind would be when God gave Moses the tablets with the 10 commandments on them. There are probably others, but like I said, nothing comes to mind.
If you were talking about, say, Greek Gods, there’s plenty of “direct human/God contact” there <wink wink>.
You may wish to identify what you’d regard as the legitimate authority in this regard. And do revelations to individuals count? (“Go forth and tell my people…”) Or are we strictly talking heavy physical-realm stuff like making the sun reverse course or parting the Red Sea? And do post-Biblical-era events count?
The 1969 Mets. George Burns wouldn’t lie.
I would like the question answered as if the Bible is being taken as truth, however any text outside of the Bible that religious scholars generally deem authentic would do nicely also. I would like to hear of the last revelation to an individual, as well as the last documented “parting of the Red Sea”-type miracle.
Saints in the Catholic church can be canonized only if they have performed at least one miracle (see Saint F.A.Q.s). I submit that a miracle fits the criterion of <<actual “hand of God” intervention in human affairs>>.
This saint, Maximilian Kolbe, lived from 1894 to 1941. So there would be at least one act of God that occurred during that time period.
Yeah right. I recently read an article in Time Magazine describing the attempts of one priest to canonize a long-dead priest. He had been completely blind for many years, and had his sight restored after beginning a series of prayers to this priest. He claimed it was a miracle. The Vatican investigated and declared it was not a miracle. Their reason: his sight was only 90% restored. If it was a true miracle, his sight would have been 100% restored.
I submit that there has never been a miracle in the Catholic Church sense, it’s all a bunch of hooey concocted by priests to con gullible people. Go ahead, prove me wrong. I dare you. Just remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.
I read the “Saints FAQ” and it says you don’t have to be involved in any alleged miracle to be canonized and declared a Saint.
I dunno. After watching my child being born, it’s a miracle my wife lets me touch her anymore. :D:D:D
Besides, look at my picutres of CRB below.
We must not be on the same page. At the site to which I provided a link above, I see the following:
Chas.E also says «I submit that there has never been a miracle in the Catholic Church sense, it’s all a bunch of hooey concocted by priests to con gullible people.» That statement is more in the tone of a debate (hardly surprising, since the “Great Debates” forum is where any discussion on religion seems to inevitably be headed). I was only trying to answer the OP, since this is “General Questions”.
By the way, you seem to be assuming that I accept as true the statement that canonized people have performed miracles. Never assume!
[Edited by Arnold Winkelried on 02-23-2001 at 09:06 AM]
If I recall correctly, Moses was God’s buddy. They talked quite often (causing Moses’ head to glow-- go figure), and on one occasion when He was feeling particularly frisky, God let Moses see His back.
Ezekiel also hitched a ride in a UFO with some deformed birds and flew up to Heaven where he got to see God. (Ez. Ch. 1) Ezekiel describes the Big Man as
So basically, God is an amber-colored set of loins, with fire surrounding them, all wrapped up in a cute rainbow.
Of course, Ezekiel was a nut, so it’s entirely possible that this was just a hallucination.
I think that’s everybody who got to see God in the Bible (assuming you don’t count those who interacted with Jesus).
Sorry Arnold, I just saw the bit about beatification not requiring a miracle. The distinction between beatification and canonization is knowledge that is about as useful as the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.
However, after a little further research, I discovered that you don’t even have to be a real person to become a saint.
As far as my assertion that there have never been miracles, I stand behind this as directly relevant to the debate. The question is when was the last direct act of god, when was the last miracle. I assert that there has NEVER been a miracle because there is no god (at least, not in the catholic church sense). Go ahead, prove me wrong. Just prove the existence of god, then prove he/she/it directly acted on the earthly plane.
Chas.E, you will notice that the question in the OP is phrased as “the last known act attributed to God, the number of witnesses, etc.” (italics mine).
As far as your challenge: “I assert that there has NEVER been a miracle because there is no god (at least, not in the catholic church sense). Go ahead, prove me wrong. Just prove the existence of god, then prove he/she/it directly acted on the earthly plane.” Since I’m an atheist, I feel unequal to the task at hand.
[Moderator watch ON]
I think it’s pretty safe to say that nobody’s likely to prove or disprove the existence of God any time in the immediate future. I think it’s even safer to say that if myself and manhattan have our say, nobody’s going to even try, in General Questions. You want to debate the evidence (or lack thereof, as the case may be) for or against God’s existence, hey, that’s great, have fun! Just do so in the right place, and we’ll all get along just fine.
I acknowledge that I’m treading a perilous line between GP and GD, but I’ll speak my piece and let it go.
To answer the question directly, the last miracle attributed to god was probably about 1/2 second ago, somewhere. Did you ever see a sketch on Saturday Night Live with Sally Fields? She is a housewife in the kitchen, praying constantly, “please jesus, don’t let the rice get sticky this time, please jesus, I pray to you, don’t let my floors get waxy buildup… praise jesus, it’s a miracle, the rice isn’t sticky!” Finally Jesus appears and tells her that he hears all prayers, and she should stop annoying him all the time with such trivial crap.
To cite a more specific, real example: a few years ago, some obnoxious TV evangelist declared that god had “called him home,” and that he would die within 2 weeks if his viewers didn’t raise $2million to keep his TV show on the air. The money was raised, and he declared his non-death to be a miracle.
So… I remind people, the theme of this site is “fighting ignorance.” Belief in miracles is superstition, and superstition is just a symptom of ignorance.
Chas E. since I infer you do not take the Bible as truth (at least for the purposes of this thread), you are not answering the question AHunter asked. Opinions that do not speak to the OP’s question should not be posted in GQ.
As kunilou said, this is not a direct answer to the original question (unless you claim to be a religious scholar whose views meet with general agreement amongst other religious scholars). At the SDMB, one of the most valuable lessons I’ve learned is to read carefully the messages that are posted. Especially in a text-based medium such as this one, errors like yours happen much too frequently.
Chronos: <<I think it’s pretty safe to say that nobody’s likely to prove or disprove the existence of God any time in the immediate future.>>
Oh yeah?! Chas.E, go on down to Great Debates and give them hell! I’ll watch from the sidelines.
P.s. Chas.E - to address your comment that this site is based on fighting ignorance: very true. But let me give you an example.
Someone asks me “In which book of the Bible does it say that the number of the beast is 666?”
Answer A: That’s in Revelations, chapter X, verse Y.
Answer B: The Bible is crap and that story of the Beast is only believed by idiots.
Which answer would you consider is most apt to help the fight against ignorance?
I have directly answered the question several times in several different forms. If you don’t find any of them acceptable to your religious dogma, too bad.
The question has been rephrased as a literary question, the exact phrase was “any text outside of the Bible that religious scholars generally deem authentic would do nicely.” This which requires no interpretation or opinion, other than the interpretation of “religious scholars.” So I will answer the question yet again.
The last “miracle” that I am aware of dates to around the 13th century or so. It is documented by the Vatican. According to the story (which alas I don’t recall the exact details, just the general story), during the Crusades, somebody captured a holy relic. Now don’t laugh, I am totally serious when I say that the book claimed it was jesus’ foreskin, and thus the only earthly remnant of jesus’ body. According to the legend, the relic was strapped to the back of a camel, the camel released, and wherever the camel stopped for water for the first time, they would establish a temple to the holy foreskin. The camel walked for many days, finally walking vertically up the side of a mountain, where its holy footsteps were said to be etched in the rock. And the temple (and the footprints on the rock) are still there to this day (IIRC, somewhere in France).
If you want to read the details for yourself, go locate the book “Spear of Destiny” which is full of tales of alleged miracles. It claims (amongst other things) that the end of World War II was a miracle because Patton accidentally captured the Spear of Longinius from Hitler. This spear was used to pierce the side of jesus and give him a merciful death as he was being crucified. According to the legend, anyone who posesses the Spear rules the fate of the world. Nevermind that the person who posesses the sword tends to have acquired it at the head of the world’s largest military force, and ALREADY ruled the world.
Are you beginning to see why I scoff at all this talk about miracles? Even though I reject christianity, I probably know more about it than you do. If you insist on church-documented “miracles” then I’ll pull out an endless supply of ridiculously stupid miracles like the story of jesus’ foreskin. And I could equally come up with similar stories from other religions, even my own, like the story of Buddha’s extracted tooth that supposedly still has a bit of living tissue attached, despite the passage of thousands of years since its extraction. But let’s not get into that here.