Law Dopers: I Mooted Today

This may not mean much to anybody except Canadian legal Dopers, but it’s mundane and pointless; and may be of interest to all of our lawyers and law students, so I’m going to post it.

Back in September, I tried out for one of our law school’s competitive moot teams. For those who may not know, a law school moot is like a mock appeals court. I made the team, and today was our moot. Ah, was it great!

The case was R. v. Banks. Banks and company were squeegee kids who had been charged under Ontario’s Safe Streets Act (SSA). They had lost at trial, lost their appeal at the Court of Appeal, and had appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada (SCC). The SCC refused leave to appeal, so we were basically making the arguments that would be made before the SCC, had the case got there. In a nutshell, the case centered on whether the SSA (specifically, section 3(2)(f)) contravened sections 7 (the right to life, liberty, and security of the person) and 15 (the equality right) of Canada’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In other words, were the squeegee kids’ liberty rights or equality rights infringed by the SSA? And if so, could the statute be saved by the internal balancing provisions of s. 7, or the s. 1 Oakes test for s. 15?

I was one of the respondents, so I was arguing the Crown’s case: that the SSA did not deprive Banks and his friends of any Charter rights. If they somehow did, it was in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice (the s. 7 argument), and that the s. 15 argument was saved by the Charter s. 1 (the Oakes test). My job was to address the s. 7 argument.

Well, we and the appellants presented our respective cases to the Bench, which was made up of three Provincial Court judges. As is typical in an appeal, they fired questions at each of us. We were all well prepared, so the questions were not intimidating; rather, they gave us a chance to explain our positions more fully, and to engage the bench in a dialogue. I even got the Bench (and the gallery) to laugh at one point, although my aim was not comedy. It was instead to persuade, but that’s sometimes easier when you can talk easily between yourselves, and a little humour can help. At any rate, I spoke at the lectern for 25 minutes–the most we were allowed–and reluctantly concluded. I was making my points and having fun at the same time!

And in the end, we lost. The appeal was granted. The judges admitted that it was a difficult decision, and indeed, they took much longer than they would normally take to arrive at a decision. The decision, as I understand it was “by a nose,” to use a horse racing analogy. But I take comfort from our supervising professor, who told us that he was very pleased; that each of us was extremely well-prepared, and did ourselves and our school proud. In fact, one of the school’s professors, who was in the gallery, came up to me later and told me that my arguments on s. 7 were exactly right, and were basically unrebuttable. This gentleman is very well-regarded at our school and in the local legal community, so a compliment such as that is a compliment indeed. And that’s a good feeling.

So even though we lost, I feel good. We did well. Tomorrow, I’m just another law student, attending lectures and reading cases, but today … today I feel like a lawyer!

Congratulations! That must feel great.
Not that you’re not making progress while you’re in class learning and studying and kicking kids and all the other things lawyers do ;), but it must help you feel like you’re really making progress in becoming a lawyer!

They have lawyers in Canada? I am soooo disappointed to hear that.

Great for you, Spoons!

I remember my first argument in the Court of Appeal - I had never really thought I’d be a litigator, so approached it with a lot of nervousness, but the high I got from arguing was one of the most exciting things I’d done as a lawyer - I’ve been hooked on arguing cases ever since. The high you get when you meet the judge’s points, when you can see the trend of their questions and adjust your argument to respond - it’s a hoot!

Approval from peers and senior members of the bar is always great to get. Hope this is just the beginning of lotsa law-talkin’ fun for you!

[law geek]Did the SCC decision re tobacco law suits come up at all? What cases did you cite in support?[/law geek]

yay Spoons! Sounds like you were well prepared for the questions of the bench which are always the toughest part. It’s so awesome when you can get into a groove like that. (I love mooting!)

If you dont mind me asking, if this was a cross-Canada moot, I’m curious as to which one? The moot teams at my law school have been working hard to prepare their factums etc, but I didn’t think most of the national competitions were till later in Feb. and Mar. My moot was an exception: I did a labour arbitration competition last week and it was a great time. Like you, we didn’t win, but my team (actually, myself and a partner + prof supervising) worked hard putting it together and arguments went well.

Well, we caught onto the whole ambulance thing pretty quickly, it was pretty useful, and then, you know, they just started showing up…

(Spoons, please don’t kill me. And congratulations. ;))

No tobacco case came up for either side. But I think we made our points anyway. As far as s. 7 goes, here’s what I argued:

I used the two-part section 7 test from R. v. S.(R.J.) (at paragraph 31): Is there a real deprivation of an interest recognized in the section; and if so, we need to measure the deprivation against the principles of fundamental justice to determine whether s. 7 has been infringed.

The appellants argued in their factum that their economic rights to earn a living by squeegeeing were covered by s. 7–but I countered this with A and L Investments v. Ontario (Minister of Housing), where the Court said, at paragraph 34, “…the economic right to carry on a business, to earn a particular livelihood, or to engage in a particular professional activity all fall outside the s. 7 guarantee….”

Then the appellants tried the security of the person claim, and got into the “personal autonomy” and “psychological harm” arguments that could be used there. I countered with Blencoe v. British Columbia (Human Rights Commission); specifically the examples of “serious psychological harm” that the SCC cited at paragraph 96. Since the squeegee kids in Banks had not suffered overly long waits for criminal trials, nor had had their children taken by the province, nor had anything similar happened to them (they basically just got tickets written by the police), their arguments were weak in light of the SCC’s examples of serious psychological harm in Blencoe.

I conceded the liberty right–the SSA does allow for imprisonment on a second conviction, which engages s. 7 liberty rights–but I proceeded on to measure this against an analysis of the principles of fundamental justice.

The appellants contended that the SSA was vague (one of the principles)–but I listed the criteria for vagueness from R. v. Canadian Pacific, [1995] 2 S.C.R. 1031, at para. 52. (Sorry, but I cannot find this on Canlii.) Anyway, according to Canadian Pacific, we needed to look to whether the impugned sections of the statute stated permissible and impermissible conduct. It did, and defined the terms it used, so we were okay there. And the SSA’s purpose was stated plainly in the long title to the Act itself, so we were okay there too.

This brought up another question, according to the appellants: could Ontario enact this legislation constitutionally? After all, it incorporates an imprisonment provision, which is often seen as reserved to the federal government under the Criminal Code. But laws regarding highway regulation and safety are definitely the province’s responsibility: Prince Edward Island (Provincial Secretary) v. Egan., at paragraph 69. And besides, Ontario’s Highway Traffic Act allows for imprisonment for certain offenses (see, for example, Ontario’s HTA s. 130, Careless Driving).

We moved on to our overbreadth argument. R. v. Heywood was helpful here, showing just what “overbreadth” could mean (and that it was a principle of fundamental justice under s. 7), and giving me a chance to show how the drafters of the SSA had carefully narrowed the statute to exclude absurd interpretations. On the absurdity argument, Canadian Pacific, supra at para. 70, helped.

I was ready with another couple of principles if need be (full answer and defense allowed, R. v Mills, SCC, 1999; mens rea element required, R. v. Vaillancourt, SCC, 1997), but we didn’t need those–the appellants went for vagueness and overbreadth, and we could address those. But we were at least prepared for anything.

Sorry about the Canlii cites, but I don’t know if it would be proper for me to cite cases to my LexisNexis or Westlaw accounts, so I erred on the side of caution. Anyway, I hope this helps follow my argument, Northern Piper.

Good job, Spoons. Last week I judged a couple of the final rounds of the (U.S.) National Moot Court Competition at the New York City Bar Association, hearing some of the top teams from around the country compete.

I’m a past chair of the committee at the City Bar that runs the National Moot Court Competition, and I’ve seen zillions of students competing, so I know what type of nervous fun it can be.

Good luck mooting in the future (and out there in the non-moot world).

You know, my colleagues at school fall into one of two camps: those who love mooting and those who hate it. There doesn’t seem to be a middle ground. As you can tell, I’m one of those who love it–but I will admit a secret admiration for my colleagues who like nothing better than to research quietly and to produce memos and such. I have a feeling articling will be much like that, and I’m not looking forward to it. My old employers shut me up for years; now, let me speak! :slight_smile:

No, this was a moot for our school only. I was one of the top finishers at the September tryouts, so I could have my pick of the moots I wanted to compete in, including the national and international moots, but I opted for this one. The supervising professor is a gentleman who taught me Constitutional Law in first year, and whom I have great admiration for. I knew that if I was going to do a good job that I could do it for him–I wouldn’t want to let him down, if you will. His scholarship and example drove me to do as good a job on this moot as I could possibly do. It may sound hokey, but his example set the standard I strove for. I hope I succeeded.

That sounds pretty well put-together, Spoons. Looks like you had a well thought-out and researched argument. (And I use CanLII all the time - I’m a cheapskate. But sheesh - the style of cause in that Ont CA case is longer than the reasons!)

Hope you went out and celebrated. Two and a half months to go!

Thought the title read “I pooted today.”

Carry on.

(Good job, Spoons. I’m glad you enjoyed yourself!)

Congratulations, Spoons! That’s impressive. And your description gives me an idea for the first time of what ‘arguing a case’ might actually be. My ideas of courts were more about ‘is this evidence real, and does it show that person X did something’. I’d never really thought about the logic of the thing before.

(I now have this image of you being appointed to the Supreme Court in about 2023. The Lion in Majesty.)

Logic? Logic! We do’n’ need no stinkin’ logic!

Quinn v. Leathem, [1901] A.C. 495 at 506 (H.L.) per Lord Halsbury, L.C.:

Bother. Just when I was getting my hopes up.

You should have posted that quotation in the “Diff between Civil Law and Common Law” thread - that sums up the difference in methodology quite nicely.

Congratulations, Spoons.

its a moot point!

Thanks for the compliments, everyone!

Still feeling good today–a number of people in the gallery were first-year students, who are currently preparing for their own first-year moot (which all first-years must do), and were there to see just what a moot entailed. So I had some of them coming up to me in the halls, telling me how much they enjoyed watching all of us in action, and in a few cases, asking me for tips on how to do well. I gladly shared what I could, but it really boils down to this: know your material, relax, know your material, speak clearly, know your material, use eye contact, and know your material.

You’re right, Northern Piper–it is addictive! I’m kind of sad that I don’t have any more moots this year. Gonna go through withdrawal, I think… :slight_smile:

I see him more as Premier of Alberta in a couple of years. It’s going to be so cool to have friends in high places! Don’t forget us little folks (at least for a while), eh, Spoons?

:smiley:

Congratulations!

Okay, lessee. Spoons as Premier of Alberta. matt_mcl in federal Perliament. What other Dopers can we enlist to gum up the works? :smiley:

(And if he does become Premier of Alberta, maybe he can get that rail line project going between Calgary and Edmonton!)