Law School or a PhD?

Agreed.

Really depends what kind of lawyer he might want to be, and why. Some of the most successful (and happy) lawyers I know simply opened their own office, either right after law school or after a period clerking, in in prosecution or public defense. The bar learns pretty quickly who’s good and who’s not, and referrals start coming in. Before you know it, you partner up with a like-minded soul or two, and you’ve got a small firm.

Well, there are a number of other options here also: being nitpicky, having a desire to make sense of complicated things, explaining, arguing, researching, writing … the list goes on. Heck, in true Doper style, you might as well add “fighting ignorance” to the list, as many of my clients have had the wrong idea about their rights and obligations in various matters, and I’ve had to fight their ignorance.

But yes, there are people who are super-stoked about the law. They generally do well at law school, and afterwards; those who are not super-stoked, generally don’t. Among those who are not, are those who are at law school because they didn’t know what else to do.

That’s the vibe I’m getting from your OP: “Should I go to law school or should I get my Ph.D.? I don’t know what else to do.” And if this is the case, I wouldn’t recommend either.

Go get a job for a few years. It doesn’t matter what: truck driver, office cube drone, retail clerk, forklift operator, whatever. Meet some people who haven’t spent their entire life in academia, and who don’t care to. Some will wish they had, others will pooh-pooh the whole idea of schooling beyond high school. Make friends who have all kinds of life experiences. Hear their concerns, and their hopes and desires, and listen to their stories of setbacks; and share what you can. Celebrate with them, commiserate with them; in short, understand them.

Why? Because if you really, really, really want to be a lawyer, these are the people who will be your clients. The most successful and personally-satisfied lawyers I know are the ones who have a background in dealing with all kinds of people; and bring an understanding of people in general to the lawyer-client relationship. Yes, some very successful lawyers don’t deal with individual clients at all, preferring to deal with big faceless corporations; but I’d suggest these opportunities are few and far between. You’re going to have to deal with Joe, who was wrongfully dismissed from his job; and Sally, who wants a will drawn up; and Pete, who is trying to collect on a debt. With a bit of life experience under your belt, you’ll better understand what drove Joe, Sally, and Pete to seek your help; and IMHO, you’ll be better prepared to help them.

I cannot speak about Ph.D. programs or what options they would provide in the future, as I have no experience in that regard; but as a lawyer who worked at all kinds of jobs for some years before going to law school, I’d suggest that if law school is one of your options because you don’t know what else to do, then perhaps you’re not ready for law school at this point. Go get a job, get to know people; and later, if you decide that law school is right for you, then it will still be there. Good luck!

Even if you only deal with big faceless corporations you’re still going to have to deal with adjusters, risk managers, in-house counsels, accountants and so on. They’re people too.

Neither of your career paths seem to be demanding to you that you proceed on them. So I voted go get a job. I’m a trial lawyer, and the law isn’t something for people who aren’t truly and obsessively compelled to do it. It is very stressful and aggravating. I can’t speak to the PhD thingy. But the law is for people who for some reason must do the law.

I was unsure, but this makes me recommend the PhD program. My son-in-law is in law school (3rd year) and my daughter is in a PhD program. He always wanted to go to law school, so he is thrilled, but as far as creativity and exploring new ideas go, she has it all over him. I’d suspect that you don’t do really creative things in law (though many cases involve some creativity) unless you are really, really smart. Not that you aren’t, but I’m thinking Law Review smart. If you loved the law enough for this, you wouldn’t be asking the question.
I wouldn’t worry about running out of things to do research on. That you even worry about this means you’ll find plenty of topics you’re curious about. As for a dissertation topic, it is rare for someone entering a program to have one handy. I assume you have some part of music history that appeals to you - when you have time to look at this in depth, something will pop out at you.
I’m not seeing that for you finishing law school is going to give you the same level of satisfaction as finishing up a dissertation on a problem you’re interested in, and getting to talk about it.
And as for money, maybe you can discover Beethoven’s previously unknown illegitimate son PDQ Beethoven.

The people who do creative things in law all went to Harvard in the 1970s.

James May of Top Gear has a degree in music. Just saying… :slight_smile:

Thanks to all the people who’ve responded so far! :slight_smile:

To answer your questions in no apparent order, I don’t feel it’s so much a case of “I don’t what else to do,” so much as it is “these are the most compelling options presented before me, that I consider to be satisfying intellectual vocations.” I’m looking at this from something of a humanistic perspective. If I wanted to make an assload of money, I’d get an MBA and do arts administration. I’m in a government town where I know I could find good paying work in that field within weeks of graduating. I know my grades and I know my contacts and I know what I can do. I’d be uniquely qualified to do it. But that all just seems so…small, and uninteresting. I hope I’m not stepping on anyone’s own profession by saying so, since I know there’s a bunch of interesting things to be done with an MBA, but I really don’t think that’s me in the least.

I do absolutely love the work I’ve done in musicology. To lay all my cards on the table, I’m writing a master’s thesis on the history of Hockey Organ music. When I started my M.A. coursework, I was hopelessly depressed and contemplated dropping out even up until Christmas. But when I got this new topic under my belt by the start of my second semester, it re-ignited a zeal I had in my undergrad. Suddenly it wasn’t monotonous cultural studies. I was the envy of my department, really thinking outside the box, getting a fair amount of publicity throughout the university. It’s been as successful as a thesis in musicology could possibly hope to be. But my concern then becomes, "how do I repeat that success on a PhD level? After I finish the thesis and do my victory parade, how do I start up the engine again, and gear up for a dissertation? Will I find another topic that interests me enough to write an entire tome about it? Another five topics? Another ten? Enough to last me until I’m forty or fifty?

Frankly, I blame the first part of that on the system of M.A. and PhDs we have here in Canada. All of the professors I know from the U.S. and the UK had the benefit of a terminal program, where you go straight into a PhD from your undergraduate. A very high ranking and distinguished British professor at my school told me as much, opining that he “Doesn’t know how on earth someone delves into a PhD after having finished a master’s.”

The point I’m making is that whatever I love now, it’s no guarantee that I’ll love it in 10 years. I seem to be one of those people that takes whatever situation they’re thrown into and make the best of it, but that’s not really an answer, you know? I certainly enjoy nitpicking, telling other people what to do, telling them when they’re right and wrong…“fighting ignorance,” as it were. But how does one decide whether they love the law short of practicing law? How do you try before you buy? I’m trying desperately to understand this. I helped a friend in law school produce compendia for a trial lawyers association, looking at accident claim victims. Sifting through tomes of quicklaw cases for three or four hours was fun. I enjoyed seeing the logic and rational which a judge used to describe how and why an amount was afforded. Plus the insight I got into little jargon like “thin skull” and “cracked skull,” to name the first two that came to mind. I love latin to begin with, so any specialized language gives me a sense of satisfaction.

But 70 hours a week? I wouldn’t wanna play Super Mario Kart for 70 hours a week, and words can’t possibly describe how much I love doing that. If I have three months to make a final decision, how would I go about sampling what a lawyer does to then say, “Yes, this is what I want to do,” or “Good God, this is hella lame?”

*Oh, and Voyager: it’s terribly gauche to bring up Peter Schickele’s persona in front of a would be musicologist. :wink: (Joking aside, I love the man’s serious work, and it disturbs me to no end that his less-than-funny comedic schtick has eclipsed it)

Ouch. This one isn’t much better

I know lots of people with Ph.Ds, some who have gone into research and some who haven’t. Let me assure you - if you did a Masters on Hockey Organ music (and why was I not surprised you’re Canadian) and enjoyed it, you will have no problem finding research topics for the rest of your life. There are some people who get a topic assigned to them by their advisor, and some people (like both my daughter and me) who find something fun to do by themselves. I’m pretty certain you are this kind of person. I’ve never had a problem finding research interests in the 30 years since I got my Ph.D, even though I’ve worked in industry where I could have done fine without any. Awesome Masters topic, by the way.

I more or less went straight into one, and picked up a Masters also on the way. A person hating to write would consider a Masters torture and want to stop. It sounds like you are not like that, and would like to do a longer, more involved, project.

My apologies. I confess to total ignorance of musicology, thanks to being totally tone deaf. One of my kids took Suzuki violin. The teacher played notes for them to identify. These five-year-olds were totally getting it - I was going “huh?” But the NY Times likes both sides of his personality, in my defense. And I am aware that I don’t get 90% of the jokes.

Anyhow, I seem to be the only person voting for a Ph.D. One more thing - lawyers wear suits - all the time, it seems. My son-in-law started to really care about how he was dressed. How do you feel about that?

I don’t. ‘Business casual’, baby. :smiley:

Lawyers come in all sorts of flavours.

To my mind, it is interesting and well-paid work. But it is a lot of work. If I didn’t need money, I’d prefer an academic subject.

Dunno what the job market is like for entrants these days, though. People say it sucks lately. Of course, by the time one goes through school and graduates, it could be a whole different story - these things tend to be somewhat cyclical.

Thank you! :slight_smile:

Yes, 20th and 21st century classical music is craving a jester to mock and berate them, as per the Bakhtin prescription. But I find his parody too mild and banal - ooh, a fart joke! I would forgive him if he was just a genuinely bad composer looking to find a niche (as I somehow suspect that I am), but like I said before, I love a lot of his “serious” work. But I digress!

I had to go clothes shopping with a lady colleague of mine in November before a conference. We went to Banana Republic and the Gap. I can clean up nicely if I needed to. Apparently, the Green Old Navy Sweatpants and Detroit Lions hoody I frequently wore to class was unsuitable attire. I was at least up to Chinos for a month, but with the cold weather the sweats seem to have returned…:smiley:

But like Malthus already said, I know *some * lawyers who are more laid back. Not THAT bad, mind you, but the most prominent lawyer that I know personally, in fact, typically wears a golf shirt and khakis; he admittedly looks more like a dot com man than a lawyer. But it’s a case of “He’s the boss man, so who the Hell is going to critique his dress?”

You shouldn’t go to law school. I graduated last spring and actually have a job that pays OK (not at all reasonably, but OK), which makes me one of the lucky few.

What I hear you saying is you don’t have any particular interest in the law, and you don’t have to worry about money. So why on earth would you go to law school? I mean, you’ve always “presumed” you would; that sounds like exactly the kind of person who should think really really hard about it while he still has a chance.

I wanted really badly to be a lawyer, and didn’t care at all about money, and I still wouldn’t do it again if I could take it back. Take away those two things and I’m honestly a little dumbfounded that you’re considering it.

That is spot on.

I dunno. Sometimes, I wonder why so many practing lawyers are, well, down on the practice of law.

Certainly, the job can suck at times, and I like a good parody as much as the next guy - but really, when it comes right down to it, how many occupations can one go into, without much in the way of start-up capital or serious connections, and have a chance at making a good professional-type salary?

Certainly, one could go into medicine, or engineering, or accounting, or dentistry, etc. … but all of these have drawbacks, too. None are exactly easy to get into, require lengthy apprenticeships and/or difficult-to-master skills, can be deadly boring or require an absurd amount of dedication and work … those lawyers complaining about overwork can always take what comfort they can from medical residents, for example; and, while law can be boring at times, what about being an accountant? If one isn’t dedicated to helping people medically, who’d want to have their hands inside someone’s colon all day, like a surgeon, or be cleaning the crap out of people’s teeth like a dentist? At least as a lawyer, I get to sit in my office. :smiley:

Law has some advantages: the work can be very intellectually fulfilling; it can be very well paid. And no need to have your hand inside someone’s colon, if you don’t want to. :wink:

Thing is, the OP is in the enviable position of not really needing the money. He doesn’t need to go into a professional-type career.

I enjoy it, but I know a lot of people who are miserable doing it. It can be intellectually challenging, even the contract cases. But it isn’t for everyone. And that video is an excellent catalog of the reasons. If you can say you like doing those things, you will make an excellent lawyer and have fun. But making a lot of money in the law is why a lot of people do it. And you can’t make a lot of money in the law as a sure thing unless you are willing to sell your soul and rare expertise to corporations and people willing to pay top dollar for that kind of work. Rand Rover makes lots of money doing specialized tax work. Ewww. Yuck. Not for me. Rich trial lawyers work for corporations willing to pay them to put the best face on truly despicable conduct and make the real victims look like unhurt, money-grubbing scum. Rarely someone like John Edwards will make a mint suing insurance companies, but that really isn’t likely.

My personal choice would be take the PhD. Why? Because I’m kicking myself that I never pursued a PhD in musicology - that’s one of my dreams that will most likely never come to fruition.

I have a BA, but in Theatre. In the 20 years that I got that degree, I have, in ways that still baffle me as to how I got here, become one of the world’s leading experts in the field of national anthems. I probably have a PhD’s worth of knowledge on the field. Musicology is probably the closest discipline that exists to anthematology. So I’d like to see someone at least live out my dream (in a way).

To play devil’s advocate, though, I don’t know how much good a PhD in Musicology would do. Two of my cousins have their doctorate in engineering, that’s a field that guarantees work. I can’t see many real world jobs requiring a PhD in musicology. Take this from someone with a BA degree in theatre and has been out of work the last 8 months and hasn’t had a single theatre related job since he got the degree 20 years ago …

Don’t go to law school.

There are no jobs.

You will die alone.

What are things I wish I had known four years ago? Well, the last sentence I already knew. Its how my parents said good night to me.

I’m going to a PhD because I’m not willing to settle for anything less than being a world class expert in my field. The fact that there’s a tremendous job market outside of academia made this decision a lot easier; I’m not sure what I would’ve done otherwise.