Lawyers as rapacious, avaricious, immoral, pond scum

I’m curious, Elret, and others that have had bad experiences, if you filed a complaint with the State Bar? this is different than a leegal malpractice suit, and is designed (at least in my state) to be friendly to the non-lawyer. If you were overcharged or lost money due to the lawyer’s negligence or incompetence, the Bar may be able to get it for you, or may have a fund which will allow you to re-coup some of the losses.

I’ve found that 99% of the time when someone complains about a lawyer, they haven’t bothered to even check into how to file a complaint. The legal profession does try to police itself, but it cannot investigate every lawyer all the time. Some dishonest practices (like padding a bill, charges excessive rates, not returning phone calls) won’t show up until someone complains. so, even if this took place several years ago, I suggest you call the State Bar Association–even if they can’t investigate because too much time has past, it may help the next person who complains about that attorney. As an honest attorney, I appreciate those who help us maintain the integrity of our profession.

My first job after college was doing administrative support for a law firm.

There were seven attorneys at the firm (two partners, five associates). Areas of specialty were primarily in real estate, probate, incorporation, and bankrupty (7, 11, 13). In addition, two of the attorneys moonlighted in environmental and Native American law.

Of the seven, four were genuinely nice people, with good intentions toward their clients and a healthy respect for the people they served. Their skills and knowledge ranged from average to excellent. One of the partners was included in this group.

One was somewhat marginal, who said the right things but who would dip into a surprising reservoir of venom and vindictiveness when his back was up. This was the other partner.

One was a completely ignorant doofus who desperately needed to get out of the business (law was apparently a family profession).

And the last one would make rapacious, avaricious, immoral, pond scum seem angelic. He was manipulative and abusive to me and the other staff, and he regularly jerked his clients around without apparent twinge to his conscience. But he billed well, and his people had deep pockets and paid their fees without hesitation, so the firm held their noses and kept him around.

This experience has proved extremely valuable. Good lawyers aren’t as rare as one might think, but you’ve got to be on your toes, because a truly bad one, while in the minority, can do unimaginable damage to one’s life.

In the last week, I have had to deal with a person who has made remarkably scurrilous accusations against three lawyers in my firm and four judges in town. In another matter I have been threatened by a police officer who does not like our firm chasing him. In yet another matter, I have had to have a person arrested and removed from our office.

I guess that makes me an asshole.

I wish people would stop blaming their problems in life on lawyers who take them to task.

Also last week two people called up out of the blue to thank me for the work I had previously done for them. That really makes it worthwhile for me.

Thanks, astro, for helping provide a bit of perspective.

My problem with lawyesr is that they have a built-in conflict of interest. On the one hand, they claim to be on their client’s side, yet, they want to bill as many hours a s possible. And the ways laws are written…they are medieval: obscure language, words that nobody uses, add up to a tangle that only lawyers can unravel. Why does a contract HAVE to contain 25 pages of fine print? And every one knows that 99% of the people NEVER read all of this crap. Which makes for profitable litigation, later on…assisted by…the lawyers.
also resent the one-sided relationship when you hire a lawyer…all of a sudden YOU are the one being dictated to! And YOU are paying the bills! Take the house-buying experience…houses get their titles “researched” dozens of times! And yet, you stull have to buy insurance! This is totally unacceptable…the local governemnet should guaratee titles and certify them for you…YOU should not have to risk getting screwed.
Or divorce…the lawyers have ensured that something that should be a straightforward, open clear process of breaking a relationship turns into a nightmare of hearings, court appearances, blah.blah.blah.
Advice for all of you in need of a lawyer: research your lawyer VERY carefully…if at all possible, have him sign a contract with you, and always review what he is doing…a watchful eye is best, because many lawyers in practice are incompetent! :frowning:

I think lawyers are great. I wish legal systems on the judicial side didn’t require several full-time professional careers to make it work, but otherwise I have no problem with lawyers. It is the cops I don’t like.

But I also think lawyer jokes are funny, and lawyers characterized as the OP suggests for comedy does make me laugh. I have no idea what I like about them as I’ve never met a lawyer I didn’t like, and feel that an overwhelming majority of lawyers are excellent people. The lawyers on this board surely are a testament to that. I question the government’s lawyers, but that’s because I don’t like the government, either.

Lawyers rock!

Legal language and stylistic conventions generally have a more precise interpretative meaning than everyday speech if it ultimately comes in front of a judge or another lawyer. You can claim that “everybody” knows what something means in everyday speech, but the fact is that they don’t. IANAL, but in my capacity as a commercial RE agent I’ve had to craft numerous buyer/seller letters of understanding for complex transactions or make addendum changes to contracts. It is difficult to be absolutely, precisely clear and iron clad about an understanding involving multiple duties by both parties without using fairly stilted sounding language. I agree that some archaic legal language needs to be retired, but in the main legal contracts and agreements are unnatural sounding because they are attempting to be very precise.

I have leases for shopping centers that are 115 legal sized pages, and I have leases for office warehouse units that are 4 legal sized pages. One of the reasons a lot of contracts and leases (in my job) run to extraordinary lengths is that each clause deals with some issue that has come up in the past that has the potential to cause trouble. Big box user sale and lease contracts are sometimes filled with page after page of explanations that attempt to nail down all the “what ifs”. The “what if” may be irrelevant to the landlord or tenant until it happens, and then the lawyer is pilloried for not foreseeing this event.

There are limits and a long lease will cost you tenants in small deals because the users don’t have the legal means (or the desire) to deal with monster leases. If you have a 10 year lease with a big box retailer you can be pretty sure that lease is probably going to run at least 30-50 (or more) pages. It’s a balance.

Re title insurance I’ll let one of the lawyers answer that, but you’ve got to realize that “clear title” is an ongoing process, and is only as good as the last conveyance, not something that was “solved” a long time ago, and that while the risk of bad title is usually small in terms of proabability, if title is bad it can be devastating. I have direct knowledge of situations where title mistakes were made and they are no fun at all.

Exactly. I’ll also add that nice friendly lawyers do NOT make for good television.

There are good and bad doctors, car salesmen, lawyers, cops, etc. The fear comes from not knowing which kind yours is until it’s too late.

I think the reason lawyers are stereotyped as evil bastards is not that there are a disproportionate number of evil bastards practicing law, but that those evil bastards that do practice law can fuck up your life a lot more severely than the evil bastards who are, say, stocking shelves at the grocery store.

A business contract does not require a lawyer. A real estate sale purchase does not require a lawyer. A divorce does not require a lawyer.

What a lawyer can do in all of these matters is insure that they are done well.

It is up to the individual to decide whether or not it is worth hiring a lawyer.

Concerning title insurance, I can’t speak for lawyers outside of my jurisdiction, but here when it is required, it is required by mortgage companies. The lawyers have no stake in it what so ever.

Here is a good example why.

*Lawyers leading a consumer class-action lawsuit against AT&T Wireless stand to receive $3.75 million in a proposed settlement giving class members nominal discounts on equipment and free air time…

“It’s a typical coupon settlement where the attorneys get rich, the sued corporation gets protection, and the consumer gets the shaft,” …

“The lawyers get $4 million and the plaintiffs get maybe $3 to $10 in credits from the company that supposedly wronged them,” Weist said. “That’s not a solution. The interests of consumers aren’t being served here.”*

Corporations are kept in line by a combination of regulation and litigation. Successful class actions often do not povide much if anything of value to the plaintiffs, but they do serve quite well as a sanctions against corporations, which just as regulatory fines, one hopes will encourage the corporations to act more responsibly.

I can’t speak for outside of my jurisdiction, but around here lawer’s fees are supervised by the court for both individual an class actions.

OK, Here we go.

Title Insurance over the past few decades has become the standard method of guaranteeing that the guy who sells you land really owns it and has the power and authority to sell it. Up until realtors and interstate mortgage lenders fell on the highly profitable device of title insurance the question was handled by having someone write a summary of all the documents in the local court house concerning the land and its owners and then having a lawyer review the summary to make sure every thing was in order, or if it was not in order to specify what needed to be done to put it in order. Title examination was a mainstay of the law business for years and the “abstract and opinion” system resulted in clear titles. The guy who prepared the summary and the lawyer who examined the summary, however, both wanted to be paid for their efforts. A fair number of people thought this was unfair. I suppose the same people think it unfair that the mechanic who looks over a used car they want to buy charges for it. In any event, enter title insurance – insurance against a minimal risk since there is little or no effort to try to find out if there are any defects in title, because adverse claimants seldom assert their claims. It’s probably more expensive than the abstract and opinion system, certainly no less expensive, but it doesn’t look like it because the cost is hidden in the closing costs.

Title insurance is favored by real estate agents and mortgage companies for one simple reason: Money. The premium is split between the real estate agent, the mortgagee and the title company. For the title company it is almost all profit and for the mortgagee and the real estate agent it is better than profit, it is a kick back.

As far as the idea of the government being responsible for guaranteeing real estate titles, the concept is based on a flawed understanding of what the county deed recorder does. The recorder does not fix titles or guarantee them. The recorder is a repository for documents and provides an indexing system. Nothing more, nothing less.

Class action law suits. Class actions exist because there as some situations in which a single person or business screws a whole bunch of people but screws each one just a little bit. It is not economically feasible to prosecute those cases unless a whole bunch of tiny claims can be lumped together in one lawsuit. Typically each claim is less than $100.00. I suppose that once in a while class action comes down the pike that has significant individual damages of more than small claim dimensions but they are few and far between. None the less, it cost a fair amount of money and requires and enormous amount of work to crank up a class action. In all the class actions I know of the amount of fees is subject to court supervision. It should be no surprise that the attorney’s fees are wildly larger than the individual recovery just because the hurt done to each individual member of the class is so small. The attorney’s fees gripe, however, misses the point of class actions. The objective is to mass a bunch of small claims to make it worth the defendant’s time and effort to quit doing whatever it was doing and to pay some recompense for past bad acts.

Class actions keep big business honest. This is why big business hates class actions and why a considerable effort has gone into persuading the public that they are unfair because the lawyers get a fee that is disproportionate to the recovery of any one class member. Some how I doubt if big business much cares what each member of the class gets. What they want is not to pay anything at all and to continue to cheat the public is small ways.

Let us get another thing straight. Lawyers do what they do as a business. Just like doctors, plumbers, car salesmen, carpenters, insurance sales men, accountants, and what have you. Most lawyers have a pretty heavy overhead. Rent for the office, electricity and gas, employees’ salaries, business, property and malpractice insurance (yes, malpractice insurance and that’s what backs up the title opinion, too), library, equipment and literally hundreds of other expenses necessary to keep the doors open. The typical small rural practitioner see about half his gross income going to meet expenses before he puts a dime in his pocket. That is before taxes. It’s not as if the lawyer is practicing out of the back seat of a station wagon parked along the interstate. Your doctor probably charges you $75.00 for an office visit that takes less that five minutes of actual doctor time. But you medical insurer or some social security program probably pays the bulk of those charges. None the less I frequently see repeated unnecessary office calls office calls before tests, after tests and to review tests. Unconscionable over billing is not restricted to lawyers. Take two of these every four hours and come back next week and we will see how you are doing.

Life in a civilized society is complicated. You can get through it without lawyers but don’t count on it. As Muffin said, you can buy a house without a lawyer, you can get divorced without a lawyer, you can defend yourself from an accusation of crime, you can drag yourself through bankruptcy, you can set up your own corporation. I suppose you can remove your own appendix for that matter. Without help I would not count on doing it right.

What in the world are you talking about? Neither the real estate agent or the real estate Brokerage gets any part of a title insurance “premium”. I’ve been selling commercial real estate for almost 17 years now and have never heard of anything like this.

Where I practice, no one gets a cut of the title insurance premium - - not the lawyer, the real estate broker, or the mortgage company. The entire premium goes to the title insurance company. Often mortgage companies insist on borrower purchasing title insurance. YMMV.

Despite the common perception, there are quite a few good lawyers out there who really do care about their clients.

There are, however, quite a few scumbags who will screw the little old crippled lady to get his fee…those lawyers generally have the ads on TV late at night.

The fine line is “billable hours”. The lawyer may do everything they promised, but I have seen cases where they bill people for the time it takes to prepare their bill. They bill huge fees for a single fax, for a quick phone call, for the time it took to walk instead of driving to court two blocks away…some of the fees are ridiculous.
My favorite story is of an entertainment attorney working for…well, a specific film project. He didn’t have a lot to do with the film but he insisted he be invited to the premere of the film. He drooled at being around celebrities. Well, after lots of moaning and groaning, he got his invitation…to the opening cocktail party, the actual film and the after party. Ready for this? The SOB then turned around and BILLED them his hourly fee for the cocktail party, the length of the film and for the hour he went to the after party!

I really don’t like to criticize my own profession when so many others are dying to do it for me, so I won’t wade in on the problem with “billable hours” . . .

. . . Except to admit that one of the primary reasons I’m a government lawyer is to avoid having to deal with them.

And, ELRET, this:

. . . Should be reported by filing a complaint with whatever agency regulates attorneys in your country. (Since you spelled it “cheque,” I assume you’re not in the U.S.) If you were (or are) in the U.S., the appropriate body would be the Commission on Practice of your state’s Bar Association. I am unaware of any state within the U.S. where this would be an acceptable way to secure payment for services, or an acceptable level of client communication.

Did I touch a nerve?

Well, in my dealing with RE Agents- they would think that Lawyers are nice folks even though Attorneys really are “greedy, avaricious, immoral, pond scum”- becuase RE Agents are a couple steps below pond scum. :stuck_out_tongue:

Neither RE agents or Attorneys create ANYTHING. They are both parasites on the system. Sorry. :eek:

Hmmm. In my province there are only two groups that are permitted to act as real estate agents/brokers: licenced real estate agents/brokers and, (you guessed it) lawyers. I supose that makes me twice the asshole I thought I was.

Folks, if anyone has a problem with their lawyer’s fee or conduct, simply report the lawyer to the bar association/law society, and have the fee assessed/reviewed by the court.