Jerry Falwell is human garbage, and what he knows about true Christianity wouldn’t fill a thimble.
No actual “Good Christian men” I have ever known would dream of claiming that a guy who was gleefully bareback banging a nastee, disgusting, haggard old prostitute/washed up C-lister Porn Star while his (former high priced call-girl of a) wife was at home caring for their newborn son was a “Good Christian man”.
What some might well say was that he is doing a surprisingly good job as President, in spite of his depraved, disgusting lack of morals or even basic humanity.
Five pages in and I still don’t know what to think.
The full list of boys that MJ allegedly molested is actually 7:
Jordan Chandler, subject of the 1993 lawsuit that was settled out of court for $22m
Jason Francia, son of one of MJ’s maids, who received a $2m settlement in 1993
Gavin Arvizo, cancer survivor featured in Living with Michael Jackson who prompted the 2005 trial
Star Arvizo, Gavin’s younger brother
Wade Robson, whose lawsuit in 2013 was dismissed
James Safechuck, whose lawsuit in 2014 was also dismissed
Macauley Culkin, via two MJ staff members (a maid and a cook)
Up until yesterday I was convinced that MJ was an innocent weirdo, based on a few key points. First, Evan Chandler (Jordan’s father) had a pretty convincing history of money problems and of trying to cash in on June and Jordan’s relationship with Jackson. Likewise, Gavin’s father had money problems as well, relating to Gavin’s cancer treatment, and had a convincing history of trying to cash in on knowing various celebrities. Jason Francia’s alleged abuse seemed less clear cut, and they also cashed in. And finally, Robson and Culkin both seemed convincing in their denials (although I can understand how they may have been coached to that point).
So where does that leave us? Was MJ just an expert at choosing children whose parents were destined to make unlikable witnesses? Do Robson and Safechuck now tip the number of victims to a believable amount? How gross do I feel after reading up on this? Very, is the answer. And I haven’t even seen the documentary. Ugh.
When it comes to the parents, the kind of parents who are going to let their kids sleep in a grown celebrity’s bed are by definition not going to be good parents. I think the kids Jackson abused were dealt a shitty hand from birth, their parents sucked and MJ found them.
On the number of victims, he is alleged to pick a boy, groom him and then molest him for years until the kid aged into adolescence. His abuse seemed to feature creating a “relationship” with the boy, so it’s not surprising that he had less victims than a spree molester. One of the victims in the documentary recounted a “wedding” he had with MJ when the victim was just a boy. He also had a box full of jewelry that Jackson had given him including what he said was the wedding ring from that ceremony.
I disagree. I think it’s even more sinister. I think as a culture, we’ve decided famous people are just different. They are demigods, and the rules don’t apply. It’s like how both Roman and South Indian cultures were really, really puritanical about people while accepting a pantheon full of antics that would make a sailor blush. We are supposed to turn a blind eye because they are famous, and famous people are not like mortals.
I think the discussion about Trump and celebrity culture in general belongs on another thread, perhaps in Great Debates.
With Jackson, I think it’s simpler. Fans really love his music and his dancing, and perhaps they’ve been fans for decades. They choose not to believe bad things about their hero. They can’t separate the art from the artist.
Another thought about all the other boys who haven’t made any accusations of abuse.
Many of them may still have deep feelings for Jackson - Safechuck and Robson still do, despite the abuse. If you have regarded someone as a your greatest hero and practically as a living god as a young child, it’s not easy to get over that. And some of them may feel that they were willing and complicit in the abuse, and received expensive gifts and help from Jackson.
And… would you be willing to speak up if you knew that the 100% certain outcome would be that you would be pounced on by high-powered lawyers, have journalists with TV cameras camping outside your door demanding explicit sexual details, and experience daily death threats and vicious insults from rabid fans for many years to come?
The point is that with that many, one might expect more accusations since he had that many kids around. And maybe we don’t know about more payoffs because there aren’t any. Who knows?
I haven’t seen the documentary, but I have 2 points to add:
I once had lunch with a pilot who flew private chartered jets. He was name dropping and telling stories (i.e. You aren’t supposed to look JLo in the eye; Bruce Springsteen was incredibly down to earth; Justin Bieber was a pompous ass who kept get trying to get access to his luggage so he could smoke pot, etc.). I recall him saying that Michael Jackson used to insist that he be served wine in a coke can, so as to prevent his kids from knowing what he was drinking (by “his kids”, I had assumed that he was referring to his biological kids, rather than his entourage). Point being, if this is true, it speaks to the fact that Jackson did consciously manage his image and was not as pure and innocent as he would like to have appeared.
I recently finished up representation of a pedophile doctor who is now in prison. Although he’s never admitted to his actions, the fact that he is currently resigned to his fate (“it’s god’s will”, he’s told me) suggests strongly to me that he did what he was accused of doing.
This guy was a pediatrician. He treated troubled youths, as he worked in a very poor area. But he didn’t molest every kid, and in fact we had a bunch of witnesses who came forward and said that he was a good man who was kind and generous and tried to help the poor boys he dealt with. Nevertheless, he preyed on those who were vulnerable - had the worst home life with nobody to turn to (in fact, one victim testified that the doctor seemed like the only person who was trying to help reunite him with his mother). So, it would be a mistake to think that a person couldn’t be a pedo just because there are some kids who he didn’t molest, even if he had the opportunity.
Also, the modus operandi of the molestation wasn’t the same each time. One kid he merely propositioned for sex. Another he actively raped in a doctor’s office. One kid talked about being offered pills; another a beer and some cash. It would be a mistake to discount allegations just because the stories don’t all match.
And, the people who came forward were all alleging contact that happened years ago. Every person testifying was now fully grown. There was no physical evidence of any kind and, in fact, many of them had serious personal issues of their own. It would be a grave mistake to think that there is no proof of molestation when all you have is testimony of behavior from years prior. (One victim even denied being a victim for years before the case went to trial)
…
Ultimately, I tend to believe that Michael Jackson was a pedophile. Circumstantial evidence (discussed in this thread) about erotica sounds consistent with this type of behavior. Plainly, he’s admitted to sleeping in a bed with these boys. And a maid talks about underwear being strewn about. In the face of sincere allegations, I tend to believe the accusers. If there is something to exonerate him, or even cast reasonable doubt, I certainly haven’t seen it.
I’m just going to say this. I was never particularly a fan of Michael Jackson’s style of music, so wasn’t really a big follower of the trials and settlements he went through, beyond the fact of having to be force-fed the developments through the news media.
But out of curiosity I did watch both parts of the documentary. It started out a bit boring but turned pretty shocking, all the more so because of the deliberately low-key way that it was presented, like having a quiet conversation with a friend during which all sorts of horrible background information gets quietly revealed.
I have to say that just judging from the film itself, I find it very credible and persuasive. It leaves a powerful impression that MJ wasn’t just a pedophile, he was a manipulative and calculating one who knew how to leverage his vast fame and wealth to exploit children with callous disregard for their well-being. During the initial parts of the film, I wished I could ask the question, “how has it affected you, and how you are today?”, but that was addressed towards the end. As adults, these men are deeply scarred.
Bolding mine. I’m assuming you’re a defense attorney. How do you do this? I’m not being judgmental, but I’m truly curious how a decent person is able to defend a pedophile. You certainly aren’t a defender of pedophilia. What do you tell yourself to get through it? I’d think you really have to compartmentalize? Do you ever have crises of conscience? Feel free to ignore, but thank you for any insight you’d care to share.
Yes, I practice criminal defense. By sheer luck I fell into a job working for a prominent attorney, so I’ve been exposed to some big cases in the last 2 years.
I have a couple of thoughts with regard to my job. First and foremost, my job is to protect rights, not people. If we don’t enforce the rights of even our most despicable people, those rights are not assured for the rest of us. So I have no compunction about holding the government’s feet to the fire (especially since I’ve seen lots of examples of corruption/sloppiness).
Secondly, I do think it’s important to be able to compartmentalise - just because somebody has done 1 bad thing doesn’t mean that they did all the bad things. A criminal history doesn’t necessarily make you guilty, and lots of people have made mistakes but are otherwise redeemable.
Then, there is the fact that, as a defense lawyer, I’m often in the position of minimizing damage, rather than getting people set free in the face of conclusive evidence. In that sense, I’m like a doctor trying to provide triage. And just as a person deserves medical treatment even if their health problems are due to poor lifestyle choices, so, too, do people deserve good legal representation even if they are their own worst enemy. At the end of the day, I’ll help as much as I can, but it’s up to them to decide their fate.
Having said all of those generalities, I often fantasized about threatening the doctor myself or telling him some pithy insult if he got convicted (to my credit, I just shook his hand and said “good luck.”). He never admitted anything; in all our meetings he was adamant that he was not guilty (I may be weird in that I want to know what actually happened. I don’t want to waste my time investigating bullshit leads). And, since it was my job, I played along with his preferred narrative. But I also know a ton of details about his life, and I know the totality of evidence.
Some clients you root for; some you don’t like; some are crazy. I didn’t like him, but I tried to make sure it didn’t show (if only because I didn’t want the repercussions with my boss). He struck me as somebody who thought he was smarter than everybody else in the room, and was in denial about how cumulative the evidence was. Because of a court order, he could only review the documents related to the case in our office. I’d usually stick him in a back conference room and forget he was there until the receptionist would page me and tell me he was looking for me. Then I’d listen to his thoughts on the mundane discrepancies in the various interviews.
At the end of the day, though, 4 victims were enough to bury him (there were other possible victims who might have testified, but due to various legal matters only 4 were actually called). Why? Well, they had no obvious reason to lie. They had no apparent ulterior motive or connection to each other. And they came across as incredibly sincere on the stand (crying, angry, hesitant and reluctant to talk).
First and foremost, my job is to protect rights, not people. If we don’t enforce the rights of even our most despicable people, those rights are not assured for the rest of us. So I have no compunction about holding the government’s feet to the fire (especially since I’ve seen lots of examples of corruption/sloppiness).
The Simpsons Season 3 DVD is currently Amazon UK’s top sales climber. Overnight, it’s jumped from #2,270 to #31 in Amazon’s sales chart. Looks like some are trying to get MJ while they can.
Wow. A few days ago I was led to a video of Sean Lennon and Les Claypool’s band “Claypool Lennon Delirium” for their song “Bubbles Burst”. Watch it and tell me what you think Lennon is saying.
Wow. A few days ago I was led to a video of Sean Lennon and Les Claypool’s band “Claypool Lennon Delirium” for their song “Bubbles Burst”. Watch it and tell me what you think Lennon is saying.
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Wow! Just wow! That is 100% about Jackson abusing boys. That is one creepy and suggestive video, and it was made before Leaving Neverland.
Sean Lennon was around Jackson from age 8 to 15, appeared in Moonwalker, and was one of his ‘special friends’.
But then I suspect Jackson was just bright enough to realize that messing around with the fabulously wealthy and famously hard-nosed Yoko Ono’s kid was way, way, WAYYYY too risky. Like Culkin, Sean Lennon potentially made for a very good cover for actual abuse of far more vulnerable kids.
