Lebanon/Israel/Palestine

Factual Questions
1

Aaaaah this situation is so complicated, can someone give me the straight up facts and arguments about it? I’ve had a look at news sources and wikipedia but it’s all so disjointed and confusing. You hear people in the news all the time talking about more conflict but please could someone explain it to me in layman’s terms.

I know it’s roughly something to do with the Palestinians getting kicked out of palestine and the israelis taking over and that’s that arguement. The Lebanon thing is something to do with Hezbollah?

Thank you.

2

If you just want a very simplistic introduction:

Jews and Arabs have lived in the Middle East for thousands of years.

After World War 2 (where the Nazis committed genocide on Jews), the State of Israel was set up. This piece of land has been disputed ever since, with various wars in the region (practically all of them won by Israel).
There are extra disputes over extra land captured by Israel in some of the wars.

There are various religions, split into sects in the region. (For example Iraq has seen killings between two branches of Islam, Sunni and Shia.)
Lebanon has seen conflict between Christians (backed by Israel, I believe) and Moslems. Syria is also believed to have backed various factions.

Some of the groups still protesting about Palestine being given to Israel include Hezbollah and Hamas. The US has defined these as terrorists.
These groups have a lot of popular support in Palestine (Hamas) and Lebanon (Hezbollah) and have obtained weapons (probably through Syria and possibly Iran).

Jerusalem is claimed as a Holy City by Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

So you have a religious conflict in a resource-poor region where some countries have got rich on oil and where another country’s military is largely funded by the US. There have been many killings on all side and there is no end in sight.

Hope that helps.

3

All of this area used to belong to the Ottoman Empire, which broke up after World War I. The winning European powers divided up the territory (which also included modern countries like Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait). Some countries were run by England or France; some were handed over to local rulers.

During the war, England had made various promises to local powers that if they rose up against the Ottomans they would get a country after the war. Overlapping promises had been made in Palestine to both the Jews and the Muslims. The promises were loose enough that both groups felt they had been promised the same territory by England. England tried to resolve this porblem by running Palestine itself and having both the Jews and Muslims live there together but nobody was happy with this solution.

In 1948, the British pulled out. The country was divided with half being given to the Jews and half to the Muslims. Both sides felt that they had a legitimate claim on the territory given to the other side. The Muslims in Palestine were supported by the various Muslim countries that surrounded Palestine/Israel. As soon as the British withdrew, these other countries, along with the Palestinians, declared war on Israel and planned on occupying the Jewish controlled country. Because of the war going on, many Muslims in Palestine fled the country to live in neighbouring countries. They generally regarded this as a temporary measure and figured they’d be able to move back in a few weeks once the Muslims won the war.

Instead the Jews won the war and ended occupying a lot of what had been territory given to the Muslims. The Muslims living in these territories were allowed to stay but the country was controlled by the Jews. Some of these Muslims decided to leave and join the exiles. A few of the exiles decided to return but most did not.

4

Thank you that’s been very helpful, so really now, what can be done about this situation? You can’t just have this much unrest forever can you? I’ve heard about various peace treaties and ceasefires all which seem to have failed. Why is the land so important (is it due to resources?) or they just want it for the sake of it?

5

Think of the British as British

Think of David ben-Gurion and the Jewish settlers in Palestine circa 1948 as Washington and the European settlers in British North America cira 1776

Think of the Palestinians as Native Americans.

Think of Lebanon as Mexico

Israel and America had a revolution and thus governed an area largely devoided of indigenous people.

Each fought further wars against the surrounding indigenous people and annexed further territory for their own settlers.

Like neighbouring Mexico in the 1650s, neighbouring Lebanon in now facing a civil war.

6

The basic underlying problem is that the Jews, Muslims and Christians all consider Jerusalem and the surrounding areas to be “The Holy Land.” Many events of significance to all 3 religions took place there, and the Jews and Muslims (but not so much Christians) feel that the area was promised to them by God.

One of the major contentions surrounds what is known as the Temple Mount. This is the site of Solomon’s temple, which was destroyed and rebuilt twice before being permanently destroyed in the first century AD. The Jews regard this as the holiest place on earth, and feel that they have a justifiable claim to it.

However, the most prominent structure now in place on the Temple Mount is a mosque known as the “Dome of the Rock” If you’ve seen pictures of Jerusalem, it is the large golden-domed building that dominates the city. The Muslims claim that this is the very spot where Muhammed ascended into heaven, and they have a claim on this land as one of their holiest spots. Unfortunately, it just happens to be in the exact same place as the Jewish temple.

7

That’s an interesting analogy but really, really non-responsive to the OP. Heck, can’t really expect an exhaustive or accurate answer to this particular OP on a message board though but whatthehey.

8

To which the Israelis would undoubtedly respond, “So the Muslims are the natives of this land? How many Muslims were living here two thousand years ago?”

Part of the problem is that both sides have roots going back a long time.

9

Neither side is a monolithic bloc. Both have various factions with differing opinions. There are groups on both sides that feel God promised them all this land for their sole use and they’re not going to settle for anything less. There are groups on both sides that want political control of the entire region but are willing to allow other religions to live there under certain conditions. There are groups that accept the idea of the other side having a region of their own with some limited degree of autnomy. There are groups that feel the region should be divided up into independant regions with arguments about who gets what share. There are groups that suggest offering concessions to the other side in an attempt at compromise. There are groups that insist the first priority must be protecting the safety of their own side. There are groups that figure the only safety they can rely upon is the ability to defend themselves. There are groups that figure they gain strength by acting as the frontmen for powerful outside interests. There are groups that figure they need to be pragmatic and accept the situation as it is. There are groups that feel they should struggle against an unacceptable present situation in hope of creating a better future.

10

Just to add to the backplot…

The region of Judea (I don’t know the country name at the time) was absorbed into Alexander the Great’s empire. On his death, Judea and the surrounding provinces passed to the Seleucids based in then-current Syria. Several internal disputes later (one of which became Chanukah), the Roman Empire took over the province of Judaea (Latin spelling) along with much of the former Greek empire. After a certain period of unrest in the 1st century CE, the Romans attacked Jerusalem, destroying the Second Temple. Unrest continued sporadically for another century; a revolt attempt was crushed at Beitar in the mid-second century, and the Romans renamed the province Palestinia, after the Philistines based in Gaza (and possibly extinct by the time the Romans became a power).

Palestinia (Palestine, in English) later became part of the Byzantine empire, then was taken over by a series of Muslim powers, the last of which was the Ottoman Empire. See previous posts for the change from Ottoman to British control.

ca. 1900, Theodor Hertzl persuaded many Jews in Europe to return to Palestine and settle there. This First Aliyah settled and cultivated what was basically a wasteland, according to the Jewish history books. I ought to see what the other history books say in comparison.

As best I know, and I’m getting out of my good knowledge here, the Arabs in Palestine started identifying themselves as “Palestinians” ca. 1920. From then to after WWII, the Jewish settlers, Palestinians, and British Mandate forces had a low-level three-way fight. The British spun off the part of Palestine east of the Jordan River as the Arab country of Transjordan; I think this was during the interwar period. The UN Partition Plan of 1947 gave the Jewish-settled areas to the Jews, the Palestinian-inhabited areas to the Palestinians, and made Jerusalem an international city, not part of either side. The moment the partition went into effect in May 1948, the Arab countries attacked, essentially reducing the 3-sided war to 2-sided, as part of the partition plan was the termination of the British Mandate over Palestine.

Without getting into the realm of GD, I’ll only say that the fighting has continued ever since.

Your questions in post #4 are, I believe, in the realm of GD.

11

I’ve tried researching this myself and can never understand the data I find, since it’s unclear to me what area is being addressed in a region where borders and governments changed.
Of the area currently consisting of Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank . . .

At the fall of the Ottoman Empire, what was the percentage of the population that was Jewish vs the percentage of the population that was Arab- later identifying as Palestinian.

In May 1948, what was the percentage of the population that was Jewish vs the percentage of the population that was Arab Palestinian.

Also,
Israeli Suffrage
I’ve often heard it said (and have only confused myself with my own research) that “Israel is only a Democracy if you are Jewish”. Is this true? False? Partly true but a misrepresentation of the facts?

What portion of the Israeli population recognized by the Israeli Government as Israeli Citizens are Jewish? What percentage of Israeli Citizens are Muslim? Christian?

Are the non-Jews denied the right to vote and hold public office?

12

:smack:
Despite the lack of question marks, yes, these are questions in search of answers. Not simply rhetorical statements.

13

This site gives good, non-biased, and easy-to-understand info:

Basically, palestine under the Ottomans was a backwards, forgotten land. When the Suez canal was built in Egypt, and a railroad was built to it that ran through Ottoman-controlled areas, those areas developed from subsistance farming to more modern economies. Population increased as people moved into the area.
The newly arriving people lived in totally separate worlds and cultures–Arabs built villages, based on their tribal, middle-eastern culture. Jews built cities (and communist-style farms) based on their European and Russian culture.

In the 1880s, things were very,very primitive for everybody. By 1940, most Jews lived in built-up areas with electricity, most Arabs lived in rural areas with no electricity.

roughly 76% of Israeli citizens are Jewish, 18% are Muslim 2%Christian.cite

There are three Arab political parties that sit in the current parliament. All their members are non-jewish. They hold 10 seats out of the 120 seats in the parliament.

14

Generally speaking, the descendants of Arabs who stayed in Israel in 1948 are citizens. They can vote and elect (Arab) members to the Knesset (the Israeli Parliament). I don’t know the percentage, but they had enough electoral clout to elect seven members (out of 120) to the last Knesset.

The descendants of those who fled (which includes most of the Palestinians on the West Bank and in Gaza) are not Israeli citizens and therefore do not vote. I would imagine that they cannot hold office in the Knesset as well.

Zev Steinhardt

15

Whoops, chappachula is right. I was fooled by the Hadash party (which has three seats. Two of the three Knesset members from the party are Arab (one is an Israeli secularist).

Zev Steinhardt