My question is how long do you have to wait on a motorcycle on a red left turn signal when it is not changing for you to go
Depends on your state law. I used to wait at least one full cycle.
ETA: It also depends on the traffic pattern. If it’s just a case of no one else wants to turn left, you maybe in for a long wait.
Until there’s no cops around and you won’t get killed.
Most traffic lights these days use buried inductive loop detectors. Make sure you are over the loop or the traffic controller won’t know you are there. You can usually tell where the loop is because you can see the lines where they cut the asphalt for it.
I’ve played around with these for other uses, and I’ve found that they can be set to be so insensitive that nothing short of a Sherman tank to trigger it, or they can be set so sensitive that someone walking in steel toed boots over the loop will set it off.
They way they were supposed to be set (in most places) is that they want it to be sensitive enough that a motorcycle will trigger it but not so sensitive that a bicycle will trigger it. Over time, the wire and other things can degrade a bit and the loop can lose its sensitivity. If you find one that won’t trigger from your motorcycle, give your local traffic engineer (or whoever is in charge of traffic lights in your area) a call to let them know that it needs adjusted. Otherwise they won’t have a clue that it’s off. It’s not like most townships can waste the money to pay someone to go out and calibrate all of the stoplights every few months. If you don’t tell them it needs adjusted, it won’t ever get adjusted.
This is definitely a “your mileage may vary” situation as the laws are different in each state. (And we’re assuming you are in the US)
Some things you can try:
[ul]
[li]Be sure you’re fully within the sensor loop, ideally at one of its corners.[/li][li]Some areas thoughtfully mark the area of maximum sensitivity - look for a paint mark in the sensor area (often a T or O, rather than just some random blob of paint or lane stripe) and stop with your front tire on it.[/li][li]Lean the bike in the loop so the engine is closer to the pavement. [/li][li]Ignore the left turn lane entirely and either make a “jughandle” (go straight through the intersection, then three rights make a left) or turn right and make a u-turn (if legal in your area)[/li][li]Park, run over to the crosswalk, press the crossing button, run back.[/li][li]Zip-tie a magnet such as one from an old woofer or a shop clean-up magnet under the bike. Some people attach the magnet to the cross-bar of the center stand.[/li][/ul]
Some states have provisions for “inoperative” signals that allow you to wait a “reasonable” time, others don’t. Some states have provisions in the traffic codes that require a sensor loop to properly detect motorcycles and scooters. You can try contacting the DOT or municipal traffic engineer to have them test and adjust the sensors.
It’s not just motorcycles. I’ve experienced it several times in cars and trucks. Every time it was late at night (early morning?), and the streets were empty. As stated up thread, I would wait one full cycle, then follow a standard practice and assume I was at a four-way stop … look all directions at least twice, all clear, then go.
Get off and walk your cycle through the intersection, using the pedestrian crossings. Worst you can get is a jaywalking ticket, and not even that if you refuse to show them ID, which in the USA pedestrians are not required to carry.
Wait, they’re deliberately designed to not pick up bicycles? What are we cyclists supposed to do?
Drive a car, ya Pinko Commie.
running coach, car-free for three years.
Here in NC, we just run them! I’m kidding but we actually have a legal defense if we are ticketed for running one.
I note the pertinent text of NC § 20-158. Vehicle control signs and signals.
<snip>
(e) Defense. - It shall be a defense to a violation of sub-subdivision (b)(2)a. of this section if the operator of a motorcycle, as defined in G.S. 20-4.01(27)d., shows all of the following:
(1) The operator brought the motorcycle to a complete stop at the intersection or stop bar where a steady red light was being emitted in the direction of the operator.
(2) The intersection is controlled by a vehicle actuated traffic signal using an inductive loop to activate the traffic signal.
(3) No other vehicle that was entitled to have the right-of-way under applicable law was sitting at, traveling through, or approaching the intersection.
(4) No pedestrians were attempting to cross at or near the intersection.
(5) The motorcycle operator who received the citation waited a minimum of three minutes at the intersection or stop bar where the steady red light was being emitted in the direction of the operator before entering the intersection. (1937, c. 407, s. 120; 1941, c. 83; 1949, c. 583, s. 2; 1955, c. 384, s. 1; c. 913, s. 7; 1957, c. 65, s. 11; 1973, c. 507, s. 5; c. 1191; c. 1330, s. 22; 1975, c. 1; 1977, c. 464, s. 34; 1979, c. 298, s. 1; 1989, c. 285; 2004-141, ss. 1, 2; 2004-172, s. 2; 2006-264, s. 6; 2007-260, s. 1; 2007-360, ss. 2, 3.)
I’m assuming the burden of proof is on the ticketing officer, who would need to testify that he sat there and watched you and timed it.
That is my assumption as well. Also, I keep an eye on the clock and if ever asked; “It was (e.g. 11:18) when I stopped there, and I waited -at least- 3 minutes, officer”.
Since 2010 Minnesota has a law for motorcycle and bicycles to go through inoperative red lights (not just left turns). A Minnesota Summary doesn’t give a time, just “unreasonable wait time.”
Thanks to the OP for making this thread. I’d been contemplating asking a very similar question.
Anyone know the answer in Oregon? Not that it would change my behavior when encountering these situations, but I’d like to know what the law is. Not that I’m likely to be stopped by the police, since I always check all ways for traffic before running a light.
BTW, the inductance loops may not supposed to be set sensitive enough to detect bicycles, but it you know where the loop is, some of them do anyway. But this is often a marginal situation. Some years back I had to get new wheels on my bicycle. After that, several loops that used to notice my bike would no longer do so. The newer wheels had a bit less metal in their rims, I guess.
Video detection (VIVDS) is probably more common now. No need to tear up the pavement to install the inductive loop. Many times the loops are left in place when a camera is installed, so if a loop seems non-responsive look up and see if there is a camera.
And for bicycles, it can help laying your bike over so the frame is closer to the loop
Except many bicycles are made out of aluminum, carbon fiber, and titanium. Even my steel bicycle won’t trip a loop.
In the case of the OP, it might be safer and more legal to first do a right turn then a U-turn (possibly using a parking lot) down the road.
The general rule in PA is after two cycles of the light without it recognizing you and giving you the green arrow to turn left, you may break the red and make your turn when safety permits. This assumes no car is behind you. If it is, you are supposed to try to “cross the line” allowing the car to move forward and trip the light for you both before breaking the red.
It is a judgement call complicated sometimes by camera traps. I got one “mail order ticket” and basically had to prove the defect in the light or get hit with the fine and points. Considering I was an “out-of-towner” it was a royal pain in the ass.
Inductive loops can be tripped by any conductive material. It either has to be very close to the loop or in a large quantity somewhat further away from the loop. Aluminum is a better conductor than steel and should be better at tripping the loops. Titanium should be about as good as steel. Carbon fiber probably doesn’t conduct, so it won’t be any good.
The problem with bicycles and motorcycles is that they don’t contain as much metal as cars do. Furthermore, a cycle in the middle of a loop has its metal fairly far from where the loop is (the loops are usually a large circle around here), so they won’t trip the loop. What you need to do to trip the loop is put the bike wheel directly on top of the loop. Often you can see where the loop is because of they cut the pavement when they installed it. There’s a black tar circle where they sealed the road. But as I said in my earlier post, this doesn’t work with every loop.
Sometimes they didn’t cut the pavement, but there’s a loop under there somewhere. Thet’s when laying the bike on its side might work. At least some of the bike will be close enough to the loop to trip it. And this is the only time when the composition of the frame makes a difference. When just putting a wheel on the loop, it’s the metal in the wheel rim that trips the loop.
As far as lights that use video detection, I think there may be a few around here. At least some lights will sometimes change for me on my bike when I’m approaching the light and there’s no cars around. They’re inconsistant; sometimes I get a green, but usually not.
As far as waiting through so many light cycles, there’s a problem figuring out how long that is. Often this problem happens to me when the road I’m on has low traffic volume and meets an high volume arterial. If it’s during an off-peak time, there may not be any traffic on my road for many minutes. Without that traffic, the lights don’t cycle, so how do I tell how long two light cycles are?
I’ve found that, on my motorcycle, it helps to stop with the engine block directly over the front edge of the loop. The engine block is a big chunk of aluminum.
There are still one or two sensors that won’t trip and one of them is in a city known for it’s enthusiastic traffic law enforcement. I try to avoid those intersections when I have to work on a Saturday or Sunday when there’s not enough traffic to another car to come along and trip it for me.