I remember when we had “Bodies…the Exhibit” at the Science Center, they had several stages of embryos and fetuses from early miscarriages. Not ONE looked like those shown from anti-abortion websites. Even if they WERE from abortions, they were far, FAR smaller and not nearly as developed as those featured there.
So, your answer in “LALALALALALA abortion never produces images like this”?
I’ll be good and get some pictures.
Are you simply contesting my citing abilities or the scientific fact that my picture showed something very similar (even if it’s a gummy bear) to the results of an abortion? Do you need the name of the doctor?
Here’s one from wiki
Some random blog
Catholic site
Pro-choice site
I am contesting the purpose of posting those pictures in the first place. Apparently you think they have some kind of shock value, as if simply viewing them negates the pro-choice position, and you don’t have to go to the trouble of actually making a rational argument.
Some more pictures with not citations or references (nice captions, though!). Maybe abortion produces pictures like that. Maybe photoshop does. Maybe you’re missing the point that some of us just don’t care.
Personally, I couldn’t give a shit how cutesy-wootsy you think a fetus is. If it’s inside my body, and I don’t want it there, it’s gettin’ the boot. If someday we can figure out a way to transfer it to YOUR body, you’re welcome to it.
Well, considering that the procedure is elective, statistics show that men who have vasectomies when they are less than 35 years old have a high rate of regret, and folks that regret having an elective procedure sue at a significantly higher rate than folks who didn’t have an elective procedure done, I’m not gonna blame any doctor for declining to perform a vasectomy on someone under 35 who hasn’t either had a few kids or stored a few ounces of semen in a sperm bank.
QtM, who performed a few vasectomies back in the day.
I hate that. “I regret that I did this elective surgery, so I’m going to sue the doctor who did it”? How about just say, “Man, I wish that I had chosen differently.”? Especially when you know he had to go through conversations about the risks, the consequences, if he was really sure.
You get snipped (or have a tubal, or have a boob job, or whatever that’s not technically medically necessary) and regret it later? Blame yourself, not the doctor.
I know people can sue for anything, but…is there any case at all for someone suing because a doctor gave a vasectomy to someone that asked for one?
I can’t cite cases at the moment, but I recall having cases of it cited, including one which was successful because the jury felt the doctor had not been sufficiently forceful in warning the man that he might regret it.
So yes, docs have been sued for it, and even if most of them are not successful, the necessary time and effort to defend the case takes a lot of emotional and time resources.
Of course. No one wants to fight nonsense in court. And I wasn’t asking you to cite actual cases. I was asking if anyone that pulls that crap would actually have a case. But I can see how they could pretend that they weren’t properly informed about what they were getting into.
It doesn’t matter if you have a case or not. Any lawsuit is bad news for a physician (or anyone, really), even if you’re 99% sure of winning. Your malpractice insurance rates go up, you have to take time out of your day to be deposed, etc. At the least, it’s a pain in the ass. At worst, it can cost your your livelihood.
How does “it looks really icky” constitute an argument? Surgically removed tumors look icky as well. Should we make that procedure illegal?
This is an honest question: did you read the two posts above you?
All they have to do is convince a jury that, while they signed the consent, it wasn’t really made all that clear to them what it meant.
I won’t contest your photos. Abortion can be - probably often is - very gruesome, even horrific. I don’t think pro-choicers should gloss over that. But, to paraphrase LeeshaJoy, so what? The same is true of surgical procedures, slaughterhouses, slums, and battlefields. The difference is that people who want to eliminate those things don’t try to pass laws against surgery, meat-eating, being poor or going to war. They work to eliminate the need for those things. Just like people who support the right to abortion usually also support greater access to birth control and sexual education to reduce unplanned pregnancies.
My original argument was a response to “it isn’t a body” regarding abortion.
- I showed a picture showing it was.
- Someone tried to funny saying “it’s a gummy bear” and “you didn’t cite correctly”
- So, I post a couple more only to point out there is a body (personhood and/or rights are not part of my argument now).
Yeah, ickyness is not an argument, but it is true, it’s science.
This is an honest answer: not yours.
The bastard climbed into your womb? I can’t believe the shit those guys try to pull these days.
But don’t be too hasty stabbing the intruder. Give him a year or so and see if he leaves on his own. And if he climbs out of the womb and takes up residence in your house, then you should most certainly stab him.
In cases like this, I wonder if a psych consult and evaluation would be of any use, to prove that the patient knew that the procedure was pretty much irreversible, and that the patient was sure that s/he’d never want kids.
I know that my life would have been much happier and more productive if I’d been able to get my tubes tied when I was 18. Or hell, even when I was 16, though I wasn’t sexually active then, I’d already known that I didn’t want any kids, ever.
I think, too, that if a man wants a snip, and can prove that he’s got a few samples frozen, that he should be able to get a vasectomy, no matter what his age.
Agreed.
Note that we can try to describe a fetus as a part of the woman’s body, or we can try to describe it as homeless invader. Both of these arguements come up every time abortion is discussed here, often by the same poster, and they contradict each other.
If it is a bundle of tissues that are a part of a woman’s body, then most of us can agree it is the woman’s choice.
If it is a person, most of us can agree that it has rights just like any other person. We can’t just kill it out of convenience.
But we will never reach a consensus on whether it is a tissue or a person. It develops from egg to zygote to embryo to fetus to baby to child to adult. To say that we “have no fucking clue” where to draw the line is not a valid pro-choice arguement any more than it is a valid pro-life arguement. The scientists may come to one conclusion, the Buy-bull thumpers will come to another, and the people who really really really don’t want a kid right now will come to another. So maybe we do have a clue, but our most reasoned, passionate arguements won’t mean shit to the other camp.
What’s wrong with “life begins when the pregnant woman in question says it does”?