That makes no sense. There are different types of irrationality at work. Racism is one type of irrationality and celeb worship is another. There is no obvious correlation between them, and the mainstream acceptance of Black celebs tends to disprove your hypothesis.
That just demostrates that you are willing to hand-wave aside contrary evidence.
The answer you already know. They are different sorts of celebs. Tiger was marketed as a good guy, a heartwarming example of talent overcomming racial prejudice to make it in the golfing world. Hence, the revelation of his partying ways is a fall from grace. Sheen is a typical “bad boy”, whose bad behaviour is seen by many as the sort of hard-partying macho bullshit that they expect (and even in some cases admire) from a bad boy. There is no fall from grace, because there is no grace to fall from.
Point though is that the patience of the public for badly behaved celebs is not endless and sufficient nastiness can, eventually, wear out the privilege they are accorded.
Meh. It is a totally different issue you are raising now - whether Blacks can become as big celebs as easily as Whites. The first issue is whether, given a celeb of equal prominence and of the same type, the public will more readily forgive a (white) as opposed to a (black).
And most folks, white or black, don’t really view Oprah as a scary, crazy bitch whore, in spite of her being Black and female.
Why was the Hon. Reverend Jesse Jackson given a pass by the entire Black Community as a whole when it turned out that he had fathered a child (while he was still married) with one of his young employees, then attempted to bribe her into keeping quiet about it?
Why did no one of consequence call Jackson out when he was overheard referring to Sen. Barak Obama as a “punk nigger”, or saying that he wanted to “cut off Obama’s nuts” or crying that Barak Obama was always trying to “act white”?
I think another factor is that many people, including myself, don’t find the majority of Mr. Sheen’s “crimes” all that bad. I personally have no problem with someone wanting to party with whores or do drugs, as long as they are not a burden on society. The allegations of violence are however a different matter. I admit to not being aware of those or knowing much about them. All I hear about are the all night benders with hookers and blow, my reaction to those is pretty much “party on dude”.
Irrationality is irrationality. There’s no reason to believe celebrity worship (one irrationality) is immune from racism (another irrationality). That’s like claiming that someone with a general preference towards blondes won’t carry that preference over to those who happen to be celebrities. It is laughable to think they would start perceiving people differently.
Blacks are employed by Hollywood, true. Blacks are employed *outside *of Hollywood too. Does this mean that racism doesn’t exist? No. That would an absurd conclusion. All kind of fallacies here.
It would be hand waving if I didn’t offer any reasoning. But when I’m told that someone like Michael Vick has been given a pass and the guy served 2 years in jail, it’s really hard to take that seriously.
Which should come as a shock and a surprise. Not as a crime that it was made out to be.
Which doesn’t explain he’s why excused and handled with kid gloves. It should only explain why no one is surprised by his latest messiness.
It’s all related to the same thing. The only reason that forgiveness is easier to come by for a white male celeb is because he’s more likely to be popular. And you get to be popular by appealing to people who match your demographics. Whites males have that advantage. Do you dispute this?
If she stepped out of line, she would. Oprah smoking crack, beating up people, and sleeping around? Scary crazy bitch whore would the nicest thing she’d be called.
Celebrity drug abuse simply is not an issue. Hasn’t been for at least 30 years. It’s *expected *for celebrities with a certain image to abuse drugs. People simply don’t get upset about it regardless of who does it.
Or are you seriously suggesting that people get upset when they discover that Black rappers are using drugs? Or that the get upset when they discover that Paris Hilton uses drugs? Of course they don’t. Rappers and party animals are *expected *to use drugs. That’s the whole “sex and drugs and rock and roll thing”. Sheen is the quintessential party animal. Of course nobody gives shit when he uses drugs, any more than they care when Snoop Dog uses drugs.
More nonsense. As CPomeroy notes, most of us were totally unaware that Sheen was violent. Whatever the reason for that, it certainly isn’t related to him being a a white male. As younote, domestic violence isn’t interesting accoridng to the press. It doesn’t matter whether the perpetrator is Black, White or Purple. The only time it *becomes *interesting is when the victim is a celebrity.
That is true. There is a difference in the way that men and women are treated WRT sex. But you need to accept that it cuts both ways, and it primarily favours female celebrities.
Ask yourself what you think would happen if Sheen routinely and deliberately exposed his genitals in public? DO you think he would be allowed a free pass? Yet female celebrities including Lady Gaga, Brittany Spears and Paris Hilton do so on a regular basis, with no repercussions at all.
So yeah, men get a pass on being sluts, but being a slut is not a crime. Women get a free pass on being actual, legally defined sex offenders and are never charged with the actual crime of exposing themselves in public. There is no way that Charlie would be allowed to walk free if he exposed his genitals as regularly as Brittany or Paris.
So on the sexuality issue, female privilege is far greater than male privilege.
Like Tupac or Snoop Dogg or OJ were locked up after being charged with actual murder? It certainly seems like the best way for a celebrity to avoid being locked up for violent acts is to be Black.
Right? Or do you have some evidence that White people are given a free pass on violence?
Is this a joke? How many times has Snoop Dogg been charged with serious criminal offences? And what harm has it done his career? Not only are Black rappers *allowed *to be bad boys, they are *expected *to be bad boys.
Your claim that only rich white men are allowed to be bad boys is ridiculous. Have you seriously never heard of any Black rappers at all?
Do you wanna put Charlie Sheen’s obnoxious behaviour up against that of Snoop Dogg or several other famous, successful Black Bad Boys? You shouldn’t have a problem with that if you are so certain that you can only get away with this shit if you are white.
No of course we don’t agree. It’s quite clearly confirmation bias on your part. You want to believe it, so you go looking for reason to believe it. Objectively Sheen has got away with far less than the likes of Snoop Dogg.
If it’s not obvious to you yet, I’m not just talking about drug abuse. I’m talking about domestic violence too. Most of your post only harps on drugs. Why, when it’s clear his coke habit is the least of my complaints about him?
Are they expected to beat up women too? Because that’s news to me.
You make that assertion as if it’s self-evident, and that’s freakin’ hilarious to me. The fact that his thuggery isn’t given much attention is part and parcel of the whole privilege thing that I’m railing about.
At any rate, his violent past hasn’t been kept hidden by any means; the flap he had with Denise Richards, for instance, got press coverage. And people talked about it. Much like they talk about his other behavior (in a sympathetic way), but they talked about it.
Even if this is true (and I’d argue that it’s not…domestic violence is interesting when it fits the right narrative), all this means is that it’s cool to beat up women and fly under the radar. Sexism in other words. So in a way you’re making my point.
Okay, I can admit that Sheen being a flasher would get him called a perv quicker than Britney flashing cooch.
But can you concede that flashing your genitals is a bit more milder on the condemnation scale than beating your girlfriend/wife unconscious? Because this is the kind of thing I’m talking about, in addition to wilding out in the streets like a dope fiend.
Please. Of all the arguments we could get into in this thread, it should be obvious you’re on on the losing side of this one. Just because a woman can flash herself and get away with it as long as there is plausibility deniability doesn’t means she’s privleged in the sexual arena. Sheen is probably incubating all kinds of cooties and chancre sores, yet his promiscuity is one of the things that has made him popular, thereby helping make money as a professional “badboy”.
Name one woman with a comparably slutty reputation in Hollywood who can say the same thing. Good luck finding one, because they don’t exist.
Have I not been talking about Sheen in this thread?
And a lot of people routinely refer to Snoop and other rappers as thug hoodlums. Their image isn’t portrayed as anything other than what it is. They are called gangsta rappers for a reason. But Sheen isn’t portrayed as thug. Just a harmless party dude. Even though he has a pretty damning rap sheet.
Black rappers are viewed as bad boys, but if you’re claiming mainstream society isn’t afraid of these bad boys, you’re naive and living in a different planet than me.
Call me when you find anyone on this board defending the likes of a black rapper with a proven history of rampant coke use and domestic violence, in a way that Sheen has been defended here. I’ll give you points if you can do that.
These questions are interesting in that they seem to imply that I’m right: Sheen is given a pass because he’s white.
That’s what you’re saying in this enigmatic rhetoric of yours, right? Sheen is given a license to be a unrepetant criminal by whites because he’s white, just like Jackson is given a license to be a shady jackass by blacks because he’s black. That’s the contention?
Possibly, but I suppose that I should have pointed out that virtually nobody, black OR white called Jesse Jackson out on his personal “lapses” even though I would argue that Rev. Jackson has often held himself out to be an African American role model/spokesman/unelected political leader, whereas entertainers like Charlie Sheen or Lindsay Lohan have always told the world that they just want to be left alone (with their pipe and butane lighter?) and have specifically rejected the mantle of role model from their fans and admirers.
Whenever the discussion turns to black people, good or bad, there’s always someone there to bash on good ole Al and Jesse. Even when Al and Jesse have no relationship at all to the people or topic being discussed.
Al and Jesse! One-hundred years from now, people will still be cursing their names.
So if you think Jesse Jackson has gotten any kind of pass by the mainstream (which is what you with the face has been talking about) you live on a completely different planet than I do.
I can’t think of a single white person that is villified as heavily as either Al or Jesse. When Al ran for prez in 2001, he wasn’t a raving lunatic or a militant freak. He was often the only one in the debates that actually spoke like a real person rather than some talking-point robot. But people will never forget him for that Tawana Brawley disaster, so people ignored him completely. Meanwhile, they’ll forgive their own elected officials for lies that send people to their deaths…lies they defend and create that wreck hell on entire societies. But make the mistake of coming to the defense of a lying whore and suddenly you’re the Evil Incarnate with a Hair Relaxer. Forever paired up with Jesse. Like the two are running buddies or something.
White people do not get this treatment.
Eliot Spitzer’s got his own show. He’s a criminal, a womanizer, and a hypocrite…but he’s got his own show! Oliver North, that treasonous bastard, is treated like an American hero and IIRC, had his own show on Fox for a while. Mark Furhman, that racist filth that carried with him the stank of reasonable doubt into the OJ trial, is often an honored guest on the Hannity Show. What kind of hot mess is that?
A man-slut, a traitor, and a racist. I hate the hypothetical games we often play around here, but if these folks weren’t white guys, would they be given the same positive treatment?
Yeah, you can point to Michael Vick and say, “Hey, he passed through.” Except he didn’t. He went to prison. People still spit when they say his name. The mainstream media will never embrace him…we’ll have to let TV One or BET do that. He’s forever tainted. Just like Tiger. Just like Wesley Snipes. Just like all the other black guys who get caught doing something bad.
I don’t see how people can not see the double standards, unless they purposefully turn their heads away from them. .
If Mitt Romney was recorded on tape calling Barak Obama a nigger, and saying that he wanted to cut off his balls, would he still be a viable political figure, as Jesse Jackson still seems to be?
Again, you must be living in a completely different planet if you think Jackson has been a viable anything in the last decade.
It seems you’re under the impression that black people love them some Jesse Jackson. From my experience, that hasn’t been true in awhile (although they don’t seem to hate him as much as white people do).
So your whole point is busted, dude. Pick another example of a black guy getting a pass by mainstream society. Cuz Jesse Jackson is not a good one.
Calling Obama names is also different than a track record for physically assaulting people.
So even if Jesse was treated better than Sheen is (and let’s keep it real, he’s not), what is that supposed to prove? That trash talk is milder than domestic violence? That’s not a breakthrough.
That’s not my perception at all, so I suppose that we will have to agree to disagree here—I think that Jesse Jackson is one of the most respected, admired, even beloved Black American men alive today, at least as far as other Black Americans are concerned, and I would gladly bet that various opinion polls and political surveys would show that I am correct on this one.
I don’t know how to look up such a subject, but if you do, I will certainly believe your cites if you can show me that I am wrong.
(For the record, my position is that after President Obama, I think that Jesse Jackson is one of the 3 or 4 other most admired Black Americans alive today. I would imagine that Colin Powell is possibly another, as well as maybe Bill Cosby?)
I do not get this either. The guy quits his Governor post after betraying his family and embarrassing his state, and less than three years later, he has his own political show on a major network.
Sure Americans have short attention spans and limited memories, but that comeback happened so fast it gave me whiplash.
The problem is that you are failing to present any sort of coherent argument at all.
You claim that Sheen is getting a pass for multiple bad behaviours because of his race and sex. We then point out that women and Blacks people get a pass for worse behaviour of the same type of behaviour, and we also point out that plenty of White men have been villified for the same behaviour as Sheen has displayed. That is sufficient to demolish your position.
But instead of distancing yourself from the position, you then side-shift to pointing out that none of these Blacks and women had the same suite of problems as Sheen, or pointing out that the White men were never villified for the same suite of offences.
The problem is that no celebrity has ever had exactly the same string of transgressions as Sheen.
There have been plenty of celebrities who have had drug problems, and you now accept that Black and female celebrities are at least as likely to be forgiven for drug use as Charlie has been.
There have been plenty pf celebrities who have been violent, and you now accept that Black celebrities are far more likely to be forgiven for violence, even murders, than Charlie has been.
There are fewer celebrities who have been guilty of domestic violence. But you admit that Black celebrities like OJ or (fotrballer) Will Smith were no more villified than Sheen was, and you admit that White celebrities Mel Gibson and Sean Penn were villified more than OJ or Smith
There are plenty of celebrities who engage in unseemly sexual behaviour, and you admit that if Sheen had engaged in the behaviour that Paris Hilton, Lady Gaga or Brittany Spears engaged in he would probably be locked up. And you admit that Black celebrities like Snoop Dogg have a far bigger reputation as womanisers.
But because we can’t find a Black or female celebrity who is guilty of drug use and domestic violence and sexual misconduct as Sheen has been, you keep sidestepping. You admit that “minority” celebrities have been forgiven for far worse behaviour than Sheen’s on every individual count, and that plenty of White male celebrities have been villified for lesser behaviour. Yet you won’t admit that there is no evidence of bias because we can;t find an exmaple of a minority celebrity with the same charge sheet.
Well, you with the face, this is GD, not IMHO. The time has come for you to pony up. You made the claim of bias. Provide your evidence. You expect us to provide an example of a minority celebrity with the same charge sheet who has been forgiven. The time has come for you to name the minority celebrity with the same charge sheet who has been villified.
IOW:: CITE!!
I do not want examples of individuals with one of those transgressions, because we have presented plenty of evidence of individuals with one transgression who run counter to tour claim. I want the name of this individual with all the transgressions of Sheen.
As already noted, Mel Gibson is a white male, and he was villified for abusing a woman. In contrast OJ Simpson was a Black male who was forgiven for abusing a woman.
And as already noted, many of these Black celebrities were charged with actual murder and got away with it. Moreover the entire persona of Black celebrities like Snoop Dogg is that of a pimp who smacks his hos around regularly and is proud of that.
So there is no evidence of bias here. Once more you are sideshifting. We prove that minority celebrities are forgiven for far more egregious drug use than Sheen, so you want evidence of the same celebrities being forgiven for domestic violence.
But it isn’t given any more attention when it is committed by females or blacks. Can you please provide a single example of where a woman or a black man engage din domestic violence against a non-celebrity, and the event was given more attention than when it was committed by a white man?
If not then you got nothing. The fact that the media aren’t interested in domestic violence no matter who it is committed by is not evidence of White men having any sort of privilege. Surely you can see that?
Maybe in your circles. Me, all my friends and CPomeroy were totally unaware of it. So no, it did not receive the same degree of attention nor as it talked about in any way at all.
If you believe otherwise then please present some actual evidence.
That is a total non-sequitur.
And can you concede that beating your wife unconscious is a bit “more milder” than shooting a cop, murdering your drug dealer or having sexual relations with 12 year olds?
Because Snoop Dogg was charged with murdering a cop, Tupac shot his drug dealer dead and Michael Jackson was a kiddie diddler. And they were all Black. And they were all forgiven and became more popular after doing those things than before.
So once again, you are sidestepping and expecting us to find examples of a minority celebrity with the exact same list of transgressions as Sheen. Well I out that back on you. Find us an example of a minority celebrity that was a flasher and beat up their partner who was villified and you will have a point. Until then you are just special pleading.
:dubious: Have you been reading this thread?
Every single point that you have put forwards has been demolished using counter examples. We have named minority celebrities who have committed every act that Sheen has committed at a more egregious level and been forgiven, and we have named White male celebrities who have committed the same offences and been villified. Allthat you have to climng to is the tactic of sidestepping and demanding thatw e find a minotity celebrity with the same charge sheet.
Every post here disagrees with you and agrees with me. Yet it is obvious that I am losing.
Intriguing view into your thought processes.
:dubious:
Umm, isn’t that exactly what it means? A woman has the privilege of flashing herself sexually and getting away with it when men do not? Isn’t that exactly what privilege in the sexual arena means
Riiiiiiight… and?
Is this a joke?
Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian and Pamela Anderson not only have far sluttier reputations than Charlie Sheen, that reputation is their *sole * claim to fame and reason for success. While Sheen is a competent, successful and popular comedic actor with 30 years experience who has a slutty reputation, those women have no discernible talents whatsoever aside form slutty reputations, often coupled with video evidence.
Right, so you *are *claiming that Sheen is more violent than Tupac or Snoop Dogg? I just want to get this straight.
Don’t you think it’s a copout to dismiss what appears to be double standard on the grounds that we’re talking about a celebrity image?
Now you are attempting to move the goalposts entirely. Since it has been proven that minority celebrities get away with far worse violence than Sheen you are now attempting to move the goalposts to what the public perception of a persona is.
Can you please try to construct a coherent argument here? What preciely is your point?
That white men legally get away with things that “minorities” do not? That has been proven untrue. Minorities get away with sexual misconduct, violence and drug abuse that would have landed Sheen in jail years ago.
That White men are forgiven more easily by society for such transgressions? That is clearly not true, unless you wish to contend that Sheen could flash his tockler in public and shoot a cop and be forgiven the way that minority celebrities have been.
That carefully crafted public images such as “dangerous gangsta” or “party animal” are reinforced by certain behaviours? Well yeah, or course they are. But those images were crafted well before the behaviour we are discussing and have no bearing on it.
Well since you made the claim, how about we put the burden of proof on you?
You claimed that Sheen is “given a pass to abuse drugs, beat women, and take a crap on other people because of rich white male privilege”
The time has come for you to put up:
CITE!
Please find anyone on this board condemning the likes of a black rapper with a proven history of rampant coke use and domestic violence.
Because I can easily find multiple threads condemning Sheen or Mel Gibson.
And you are the one who has said that an absence of board discussions are acceptable evidence. So if you can not find evidence of people ondemning the likes of a black rapper with a proven history of rampant coke use and domestic violence, that will be compelling evidence that you are wrong, and that in fact White males are far more criticised than minorities for the same behaviour.
If you could find one of those opinion polls supporting this incredible claim, I’d love to see it.
Now, I might give you Al. I respect Al Sharpton a lot more than your average person does, despite his flaws. If Al were to run for public office, I might vote for him. He’s never said one thing that I disagreed with substantially, and I find him to be very intelligent and personable. Even with that hairdo.
But Jesse? Jesse stopped being relevant a LONG time ago. He was once a hell of a guy, and I’m sure he’s not a bad person now. But he does not have much respectability except from maybe people stuck in the 1960s Civil Rights days. He definitely does not have the following that Al has.
So no, I don’t want to “agree to disagree”. I want some cites.
I can rattle off a whole bunch of black figures that are neither Al or Jesse that would rate high on the “admirability” scale. Civil rights legends like John Lewis and Andrew Young. Controversial black power legends like Angela Davis or Emira Baraka (who I can’t stand, but whatever). Political pundits like Roland Martin. Entrepenuers like Oprah and Russell Simmons. Academic eccentrics like Cornel West. Even politicians like Cynthia McKinny, who I used to think was just plain looney-tunes crazy but now realize she’s Nat Turner/John Brown/Harriet Tubman crazy. Jesse on this list? Can’t see it, sorry.
Name one woman or black person with a recent history of domestic violence and drug abuse who has been treated like Sheen. Just one name, please. I’ve seen names like OJ and Vick mentioned, but guess what? It took me very little effort to show how much they are villified, because the evidence is contained within the archives of this very board. All the people who have been held out examples of people getting “a pass” are not respected by mainstream society at all.
But if Sheen’s shenanigans are so “run of the mill” (to quote Malthus), how come it’s so difficult to find a celebrity who has done similar things?
Blacks celebrities are not more likely to be forgiven for violence. I have no idea where you’re inferring this from anything that I wrote. I said black rappers have a reputation for being thugs, because they do. People call them refer to them with those terms all the time. It’s part of the reason its so popular to scorn rap music. I said nothing about murder or anything else.
Here’s another data point: Recall when Giant’s receiver Plaxico Burress accidentally shot himself in the thigh. Himself, mind you. Question 1) How many years in prison did he get for that? Question 2) Were the public against him or for him?
Now let’s talk about Charlie. He shot his ex fiancee in the arm, has beaten up girlfiends, held his wife at knife point. Question 1) How many years in prison did he get for any of this? Question 2) How many people even know he done all this crap?
The rest of your post was TLDR, sorry. I probably would feel more inclined to respond if you had at least one cite or link to bring to the table, but you think it’s enough to make assertions. I find assertions without substantiation weak, though.
