Granted this is 5 years old, but that is hardly “a LONG time ago”. And I can’t find anything more recent that says otherwise. It’s hard to imagine Jackson’s standing having fallen significantly in such a short period. While I imagine that Obama would rank first if the poll were conducted today, Jackson would surely still get the second spot.
So unless you have some newer evidence, it appears that **MPB ** is correct. Jesse Jackson is one of the most respected, admired, even beloved Black American men alive today.
Perhaps you are not as in touch with the attitudes of Black community as you believe you are?
If you can find threads condemning Sheen, I’d be interested in seeing what they look like.
Gibson did take some heat on this board. But I will also note that even when the mother fucker was caught on tape ranting and raving, several Dopers were finding ways to apologize for his behavior. More than a little bit of victim-blaming could be found.
I would say that he’s viewed as significant leader (mainly because there are so few black leaders on the national stage to begin with), but a diety? Saying something like this (and in such a smug fashion to boot) doesn’t make you very credible.
And still I’m confused as to why Jackson is even relevant in this discussion, unless, like I said earlier, you think there is a racial bias involved in Sheen’s public image. Otherwise, it just looks like a bunch of red herring.
I have given you examples of find you a black people with histories of domestic violence who were treated like Sheen (Whitney Houston, OJ Simpson), and I have given you examples of Black people with far worse histories of drug abuse who have been treated like Sheen (Whitney Houston, Snoop Dogg).
So once again, you are sidestepping and expecting us to find examples of a minority celebrity with the exact same list of transgressions as Sheen.
Well I put that back on you. Find us an example of a minority celebrity that was a flasher and beat up their partner who was villified and you will have a point. Until then you are just special pleading.
So you are saying that there are more threads villifying Whtiney Houston and Snoop Dogg than threads villifying Sheen or Mel Gibson?
Cite!
How precisely are you measuring the degree to which mainstream society respects a person? Hell, how are you measuring mainstream society? This seems like a clear example of special pleading, but I will l let you answer the question before I make that accusation.
What I can say objectively is that after the crimes of Snoop Dogg or Whitney Houston became public they became even more popular than they had been before. That seems to be the only objective measure I can think of to determine whether they were given a pass by mainstream society.
First off nobody has said that it is run of the mill. So that is a blatant strawman.
I can name dozens of celebrities who have abused drugs, dozens who have commited violent acts and dozens who have acted like complete sluts. What is somewhat rare is finding celebrities who are stupid enough to be caught for all three.
So I say once again. The time has come for you to pony up. You made the claim of bias. Provide your evidence. You expect us to provide an example of a minority celebrity with the same charge sheet who has been forgiven. The time has come for you to name the minority celebrity with the same charge sheet who has been villified.
IOW:: CITE!
So you are saying that Snoop Dogg and Tupac suffered adversely from their violent acts? If not then how can you claim they were not forgiven?
I have no idea. I had never heard of the incident. In fact I have never heard of Plaxico Burress.
Now how about you?
Was Tiger Wood’s wife ever charged with domestic violence? If so, when?
When male Tampa Bay Buccaneers linebacker Geno Hayes was a victim of serious domestic violence, did it get more or less publiicity than the much less sever assault on female singer Rihanna?
When was reality TV star Kelly Bensimon charged with domestic violence, and what was her sentence.
See, we can play duelling anecdotes about minor celebrities and domestic violnece all day, and you will lose. Because all I have to do is pull out examples of minorities being treated the same as white males. You need to produce some compelling evidence for your claim that they are treated differently.
OJ Simpson killed his wife and her boyfriend and ran from the police. Question 1) How many years in prison did he get for any of this?
Michael Jackson sexually assaulted children. Question 1) How many years in prison did he get for any of this?
Whitney Houston admits she regularly assaulted her husband. How many people know about this?
Far more than know about the transgressions of Plaxico Burress. Right? And far more than knew about the transgressions of OJ prior to the murders.
What a convenient way to avoid answering my questions. In fact you didn’t even answer the questions I asked in the section you did read.
That sort of evasive behaviour makes people think about the strength of your position.
But hey, I will post them again for your convenience, how’s that?
Too easily done.. once you answer my simple questions.
Once again, I addressed this in detail above, and you were utterly unable to refute it, or even address it
Yet you repeat the same garbage here.
Your debating ability consists of nothing more than repeating the same demolished points over and over. It appears clear that nothing we say and no amount of reason or evidence will have any effects
Wow, in 2006 a whopping 15% thought that Jackson was the most important black leader . Running close second was Condoleeza Rice, who everyone knows is practically diefied by blacks as much as much as Jesse is.
15% is almost not that far from being most black people, if you squint hard enough in the dark.
monstro, these white guys have you beat. Might as well throw in the towel.
Believe it or not, it’s not enough to just throw out a name and hope that it’s sticks. Back up what you are saying with cites or quit wasting my time. If you’re going to claim Whitney Houston has beaten up people and been charged with felonious assault, I’d appreciate some citage. Just one link, to one story. You know, like I’ve done throughout this thread.
Yes, she’s a dope fiend. But is she a violent, reckless, dangerous dope fiend? Is she still given respect and pats on the back? Or has she been relegated to mockeryville? These are the questions you need to be answering. Pointing to her mere existence tells me nothing.
:: Glancing over the rest of your post to look for hyperlinks and unsurprisingly, finding nada. ::
The statement made was that “Jesse Jackson is one of the most respected, admired, even beloved Black American men alive today.”
The survey shows that Jesse Jackson was *the *most respected and admired, Black American man alive just 5 years ago.
Nobody said anything about most Black people
Nobody ever mentioned deification.
The claim was that “Jesse Jackson is one of the most respected, admired, even beloved Black American men alive today.” And all the evidence says that “Jesse Jackson *is *one of the most respected, admired, even beloved Black American men alive today.”
Now if you have even one shred of evidence that Jesse Jackson is *not *one of the most respected, admired, even beloved Black American men alive today, please present it.
If not then please just answer my simple questions from previous posts.
Because this debate is already going poorly enough for you. You are already refusing to answer numerous simple and inconvenient questions or provide requested evidence.
You really don’t need to get involved in side debates where the evidence is also against you.
you with the face, are you able to answer my questions and provide the requested citations, or not?
I’m guessing you can’t but I’ll give you a chance to admit that of your own free will.
Nobody in this entire thread agrees with you, and I doubt you have any credibility left with the lurkers, so you may as well at least try to salvage your dignity from this race-card train wreck.
Disingenuousness. The respondents were asked to name the most important black leader. Nothing about respect and admiration in there; those are your words, not theirs. What you should have also picked up as that 1/3rd of the respondents didn’t even answer the question. You simply latched on to that big whopping 15% and screamed victory like a fool.
I take it we’re also supposed to believe that Condo Rice is the second most respected and admired leader among blacks, right? Yes, this is some funny shit right there.
You’re not reading if you think I brought deification into the discussion. All you gotta do is hit ctrl F to see who that person is.
Uh, no. You need another cite to say this. The one you provided isn’t doing you any favors. It’s making you look fairly silly, actually. So glad I was sitting down when I came across that ginomous 15%*. Otherwise I would have been blown away by the sheer enormity of it.
*Is Jesse a coke-addicted, wife-beater? Still trying to figure out why in the hell he is relevant at all in this discussion.
That much may be true. It was true once upon a time. It’s legitimate to wonder if it is still the case. The way to find out would be with an approval survey.
The survey shows nothing of the kind. It shows that JJ was considered “most important” by a larger small fraction than named any other specific individual that. It’s possible that some people who named Jackson as “most important” don’t actually like him. And I’m pretty sure that Barack Obama has cut into JJ’s numbers here anyway.
In any case, that form of survey is nothing like an approval survey in which someone’s opinions of Person A are measured independently of their opinions of Person B.
Honestly, what question? I’ve provided ample examples and cites in this thread. By my count, you’ve contributed a grand total of one cite, and it was in reference to someone who is irrelevant.
You compared Sheen’s treatment to OJ, and I provided a cite to show why this is sheer absurdity. More recently you claimed Whitney Houston has gotten a pass for committing similar offenses as Sheen, but strangely, oddly, mysteriously, you brought no cites to back up this extraordinary claim.
So I decided to do your homework for you. One of the first cites I came was across this:
“Wow”, I thought when I read this. “This article sure makes it sound like Whitney is the victim of domestic violence, not Bobby. But of course good ole Blake wouldn’t lie to me about her history, so the truth is gotta be out there somewhere.” I found it hard to believe you would just make up an allegations just so you score points in a GD thread, you know?
But I couldn’t find any stories about how she had battered Bobby. Only stories about abuse she’d taken abuse from her husband.
His legal name at birth was Charles Michael Levine. “Chaim” is a Hebrew version of Charles, and Levine/Lorre might have been addressed by that name as child in Hebrew school at some point, but it has never been his legal name and he certainly has never been known by it in the time he’s known Charlie Sheen.
Nobody mentioned like. The words used were “respect” and “admire”.
And if you are going to argue that Black people consider considered Jackson the most important Black leaders but neither respect nor admire him, my response can only be :rolleyes:
I already said this.
Well at this stage we have put up our evidence, and it says that Jackson *is * one of the most respected and admired Black Leader in America. Beloved we will leave for another day.
Now it is your turn to present your evidence that leads to reject this assertion.
That’s the way debates work around here. I put up my position and the facts that lead me to that position then, if you dispute it, you put up the facts that lead you to dispute it.
So why do you believe that Jackson is *not * one of the most respected Black leader in the US, and what evidence do you have for that position?
Bullshit. Your evidence does not mean what you say it means. You have given no genuine support for your claim.
I never said I believed that–in fact I said “it may be true” that he is. My entire point is precisely that I haven’t seen any statistical evidence that speaks to the issue, one way or another. I said “the way to find out would be with an approval survey.” That is still the way to find out. I don’t know if an appropriately structured approval survey on black leaders has been done in recent years. I’d be interested to see one. The AP-AOL Black Voices survey from 2006 is assuredly not it.
You can’t tell the difference between thinking somebody is important, versus respecting and admiring that person? Whatever.
I’m not particularly invested in the questions of Jesse Jackson’s importance or admiration, but proper survey methodology is the kind of thing rational thinkers like to take care with. Maybe we need a separate thread specifically on that. I expect there are several posters who’d address that topic and perhaps haven’t wandered this far down a celebrity gossip thread.
