Hollow.
That’s the word I as looking for.
I do agree that there’s a difference between “I think this person is important” and “I respect, admire and/or love this person”.
If someone asked me, “Who is the most important Jewish leader in the world right now?” I’d probably say Bibi Netanyahu, but that doesn’t mean I respect him. He’s a shit. Doesn’t mean he isn’t important.
I’d always heard that Bobby Brown was the batterer, not the batteree, and a quick Google backs me up - I can find a lot on Whitney Houston pressing charges but nothing on her assaulting him.
Even if the poll results mean what you think they mean, **
Blake**, 15% is very underwhelming evidence of MPB in Salt Lake’s claim. In fact, I’m embarrassed for you that you would even trump that out because MPB’s point was that Jesse got a pass from black Americans after he was caught shit-talking the president. Find a poll that occurred AFTER this incident and you’d be doing MPB a huge favor. As it is, you’re making his case look worse.
But as you with the face keeps saying, Jesse Jackson is a goddamn red herring. He has never been caught smoking dope, beating his wife, shooting his wife, locking up hookers or anything that’s against the law. His most recent guilty offense is being a philanderer while having Rev. in front of his name. Yeah, that makes him a hypocrite…just like 99% of religious public figures. And if the point is that black people have given him a pass because he’s a black guy, are we then to conclude that white people are immune to the same bias? Why do I find that to be highly unlikely?
We are still waiting for the Sheen defenders to bring up evidence of a black guy or a white woman getting the same pass that Sheen is getting. Jesse Jackson is not a good example. Michael Vick is not a good example. OJ Simpson, the most hated man in America, is not a good example. I named some white guys who did some horrible crimes (treasonous, even!) who were never punished and actually given the royal treatment. I can’t think of a single non-white man who has been given this kind of leeway. NONE.
People hated HATED Jesse Jackson for his “Hymie town” comment. Yes, that was awful thing for him to say. But when it’s Don Imus or Michael Richards defaming black people, we have long-ass threads discussing his “freedom of speech” and how we have to look at the “context” before issuing judgment. Bullshit. George Allen, the former-Virginia governor and senatorial candidate who was revealed to have had a very nasty racist history, is seriously considering running for office again. And the scary thing is that he might just win because he still has lots of supportors (among even my intelligent coworkers…I can hardly believe it!). So again, Jesse is a HORRIBLE example of whatever it is you guys are trying to prove. Name someone else, please.
As someone who admits to bias and believes that privilege does exist, I don’t think that’s it in this case.
To the OP: I’m not sure what it is, exactly. Part, I think, is that Sheen is himself absurdly, insanely likable. Until the very latest set of rants, he still came across as someone who would be kind of fun to hang out with. There is some kind of charismatic “it” that Sheen has. When Robert Downey Jr. was doing absurd amounts of drugs (and I don’t think there was any violence involved), he didn’t get the same kind of pass that Sheen was getting. On a different message board, someone brought up Sutherland, who has had his own set of violent, substance assisted incidents and he doesn’t get the same pass that Sheen does. They’re considered “trouble” in a way that Sheen wasn’t (again, until the latest set of rants), their behavior tainted them more than his did and I think it’s because they’re just not liked the way that he is. Lohan comes across as a celebrity version of one of the mean girls in her movie. Honestly, I don’t think even his brother could have gotten away in the eye of public opinion with what Sheen had been pulling - he doesn’t have the same charm.
To most of the rest of the participants in the thread: Jesse Jackson? deified? seriously?
I’m still wondering why Blake thinks Whitney Houston has gotten a pass for beating up her husband when all I can find is evidence that she was beaten up. It makes me think the unthinkable: that he just fabricated something in the hopes that no one would call him on it.
It would also be nice and relevant to the discussion if he could point to all the threads that villify Sheen, as that would actually do the most to undercut my argument that Sheen has gotten a pass. He said they are there but he won’t provide us with any links. How strange is that?
It’s not like I think there are threads like this in existence, mind you. I mean, if I were going to start a GD thread about Sheen, you would think that one of the first things I’d search the board for his name and find out what things people were saying about him. And of course I did that, and found no lengthy screeds calling him at for his behavior.
But Blake says he can dig some up, by gollee. And we’re all waiting with baited breath for them. Yup.
I don’t know why the OP brought up race, since his comparison between Sheen and Lohan most clearly invites questions of sexism, not racism.
Going with sexism, I think the OP may have a point. Sheen is known to have done much worse things than Lohan, yet Lohan is typically scorned much more harshly than Sheen. A strange pair of facts.
(bolding mine)
As far as I recall, much was said about Downey’s drug problem, but he wasn’t scorned, mocked, and villified. Since his name has been brought up before, does anyone have any cites (even links to threads on this board) that attest to public outrage over his behavior? Because I don’t recall any outrage. Just typical celebrity gossip stuff. Certainly nothing like the stuff said about Lindsay.
At any rate, the violence thing matters here. Even if Downey had a chronic history of beating up wives and girlfriends on top of being addicted to drugs, I would not be surprised if he received Sheen’s treatment. Both men are popular and respected. Both fit an irreverent, smartass, badboy image that is celebrated in our society. It will take some evidence to convince me that Downey would have had a different fate from Sheen if he’d been twice convicted of domest violence.
Do you have some cites for this? When has Sutherland been publically villifed for anything to the extent that his job was in question and law enforcement was involved? I didn’t even know that he had a violent past. Was it domestic abuse like Sheen’s?
Because a black man wouldn’t be able to get away with wife-beatery and still be America’s favorite badboy like Sheen has.
To be fair, it doesn’t seem like anyone regardless of race, can get away with what Sheen gets away with.
Now, I can’t come up with a black man that has done similar and gotten away with it, but I can’t really come up with another white man either.
Mel Gibson is hated and thought of as a crank. Tommy Lee is considered low class scum. Chris Brown is not well regarded (although not as bad as the previous two I think.)
Point is, other than Sheen I can’t think of anyone who gets a pass for being this much of a douche. I’m inclined to think that it’s not his whiteness that get him a pass - it’s his ‘Sheenness’.
2.5 men was cancelled during production. That would indicate that even Sheen has limits and he stepped over them. Listening to his rant ,he sounds strange and out of touch. I understand actors thinking they are special. But he is a bit overboard.
Richard Pryor came pretty close. Minus the hookers, but including plenty of spousal abuse and cocaine addiction.
ETA: Actually, including the hookers, now that I think about it. I recall that he once phoned his wife to tell her he loved her, while sandwiched between two hookers.
And of course, Richard Pryor remains a beloved figure.
(FTR, I think Charlie Sheen is a complete jackass.)
I admit that it’s hard to find a person who approaches Sheen’s history of violence and drug abuse, white or black.
But I can think of black celebrities who have taken more public flak (not just jail time) for lesser crimes; not so much for rich white guys. Let’s talk about Mel Gibson. It really wasn’t until recently that Gibson was shaken off his pedestal. And believe it or not, the guy is still starring in movies, so his image is not completely defiled by any means. In 2006, after his DUI and anti-semitic remarks, I remembered how quickly he recovered the good graces of America. Went on to release Apocalypto without any controversy.
It Eliot Spitzer is any indication, Gibson only needs to wait things out a couple of years and the public will be ready to fully embrace him again. (I don’t expect anyone to believe me. I’m just posting this so that my prediction will be on record.)
Keifer Sutherland was mentioned earlier. The guy has been arrested for DUI 4 times. He’s been to jail over it sure, but has never done hard time (just 48 days total). Certainly never got 2 years in prison like Burress and Vick have over lesser, first-time offenses that didn’t involve bodily harm to other people. Didn’t incite any of the public scorn that these guys got either. His last DUI occurred while he was starring in 24. As much as driving drunk is ranted about on this board, you would think someone would have pitted Keifer over his out of control behavior. But no, we don’t pit the stars of 24 and Two and Half Men, because they’re badboys, and we expect rapscallian behavior from these guys.
But if anything is reassuring in this thread is the fact that few people are arguing against my assertion that Sheen has gotten a pass. So at least we agree on that.
OJ Simpson and Robert Blake would suggest it is not color but the color of your money. If you have enough, you can get away with murder. High power super star lawyers can beat down most courts.
Lohan has been in and out of court. If it were a regular person there would only be an in.
It gets to a point where the celebrity seems to defy the court. That is when they get in trouble. That line is not available to the average citizen.
Spoke, I grant you Pryor. He had quite a history and was popular in the mainstream.
[aside] If Pryor was in his prime today (instead of in a casket), I wonder if things would be the same with him. He was the last badboy black comic that I can remember. Eddie Murphy comes the closest and even he might not really count since his brushes with the law have been limited to that transvetite AFAIK: no DUIs or drug busts or violence. Chris Rock is a family man and David Chappelle is more quirky than bad. Before them was Bill Cosby, who is safer than Jello. With trends like this, it makes me wonder if we’ll ever see a Pryor type emerge ever again. [/aside]
Well that’s the key, I think. I don’t think it’s about race, really. You make enough money for the studios, and you can get into and out of all kinds of trouble. And as long as you can maintain an “aw shucks” attitude and laugh at your own foibles in public, your public will forgive you too.
I think Sheen has crossed that last line with his recent venomous outbursts, though. I’m surprised you have friends who are defending him after that nastiness. (I suspect maybe your friends are just yanking your chain.)
Exactly. I’m sure if a poll were taken on this board five years ago, there’d be widespread agreement that Dick Cheney was “an important figure”, but there’d be plenty of evidence that he was not beloved here.
I suggest that Blake and MPB invest in a dictionary.
Mr. Sheen has yet to bring a knife to a fight…
No he wasn’t yanking my chain. If you read the latest threads about Sheen, you’ll find plenty of people have who minimized his behavior or even expressed admiration for his ballsy lifestyle (I linked to one such poster in my OP). I mean, I know it’s hard to believe people are defending Sheen, but you’re surrounded by them here; your skepticism is misplaced. When you have people saying with a straight face that Sheen’s behavior is run of the mill? Yeah, come on now.
It’s not even that people are defending Sheen as much as they are treating him like a poor troubled soul. Other domestic abusers with drug problems who have managed to evade jail repeatedly should be so lucky.
Is this a whoosh? It’s funny regardless.
Lots of people admire the guy who can live a wild playboy life. It is not that he is a admirable character ,but that if you ascribe to hedonism, he is a pretty good model. I doubt anyone thinks he is a poor troubled soul but more likely an immature man with lots of ways to get in trouble available to him.
He should not have married. He was surely not ready to be a father. If he stays single all he has to do is keep out of the papers and keep his mouth shut.