Let me be real clear: this message board does NOT need conservatives

[k9bfriender]

@Martin_Hyde

Are you actually unaware that Fox News, Breitbart et al. have found various incidents all over the country where teachers have had “lessons” on race, and those lessons either were age-inappropriate, or were easily portrayed as being more age inappropriate than they were? How many did they find?

But if you think that means that they were teaching CRT, then you are believing the lie that they are telling you.

@Martin_Hyde

But when Fox News literally devoted (and this was documented) over one hundred hours of coverage to those incidents, the fact that “if we do a deep dive into these incidents, they aren’t quite what the right says they are, and they aren’t necessarily anti-white, well except maybe for one or two–but that teacher was chastised for it.” You can’t fight battles like that.

All your are saying here is that if they repeat a lie enough, you will believe it.

@Martin_Hyde

The Republicans created a narrative that schools are teaching that it’s evil to be white, and they encapsulate that by using the boogeyman term “CRT.” Since Democrats don’t actually believe it’s evil to be white, they should just say they’re against it, and move on. Just like they did with Defund the Police.

Right, they are telling lies, and you want the Democrats to deny these lies. Then they will tell more lies, and you will want the Democrats to deny them as well.

Why not tell the Republicans to stop lying?

@Martin_Hyde

If the GOP was literally inventing it out of absolute thin air, you could ignore it. But they have some source material and a major propaganda arm that force feeds people distorted perceptions of that source material all day every day.

Well, they are inventing it out thin air. Their source material doesn’t relate to the claims that they make. If I found a handful of rightwing teachers that said racist things in the classroom, would you equate that to mean that the Republicans have a concerted effort to teach racism? That the Republicans need to come out and deny that they teach racism?

@Martin_Hyde

People in the real world often don’t take kindly to being “explained away.” They understand a simple refutation much, much better.

No they don’t, as you have aptly demonstrated here. You haven’t understood a simple refutation.

@Martin_Hyde

They understand “no, we don’t believe that” much more than “umm that assertion is exaggerated and CRT is ackshually just a college-level academic theory and blah blah blah.”

So, you want Democrats to simply lie? CRT is a real thing, that is taught in some academic areas, that has real use. To say that one doesn’t believe it is to lie, and to not only lie to the Republicans and the public, but to also undermine your own allies.

[Eonwe]

@Martin_Hyde

Republicans highlighted an issue, that if you accept on its premise, is not good politics for Democrats. When you can easily simply say “I actually oppose that”, you should do so.

If you think that the royal we Democrats just have to say the magic words for conservatives/Republicans to sit down and shut up, then I have a bridge to sell you.

But I don’t think you actually think that, so I ask:

1. What actual thing happening in the world do you think Republicans are actually talking about when they protest the teaching of CRT in schools?

2. What actual “anti-CRT” position do you think most Democrats would broadly agree on?

Do you think that your answer to #1 is likely to be addressed by #2 in such a way that a meaningful proportion of conservatives will be satisfied and will give up their furor over whatever they mean by CRT?

[Kimstu]

@Martin_Hyde

I’m not interested in evaluating its merits or digging into how much Republicans have lied. I’m interested in a political discussion

It’s a bit gobsmacking that you don’t consider the issue of “how much Republicans have lied” to be relevant in a political discussion.

I mean, you seem to be suggesting that Democrats should be just treating Republican lying and delusion like an unremarkable fact of nature, like the weather or something, and fight back against the lies without mentioning that they’re lies.

The lie that Biden wants to “defund the police” was relatively easily countered (although that hasn’t stopped it from still being assiduously pushed by Republican liars) because most people interpret “defund the police” as “abolish the police”, which is a solidly unpopular idea across the political spectrum.

Having realized that, Republican liars apparently determined not to get caught like that again, and mounted their “anti-CRT” campaign armed with a much more fuzzy and fluid buzzword that they can claim to be opposed to.

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

@Kimstu

I don’t see why we as rational realists about history and social policy can’t do the same. If we want to talk and/or teach about issues of race, diversity, systemic racism, minority exclusion in traditional histories, and so on, we can do so by calling those concepts by their names.

I think that’s very close to the point I’m trying to make. Granted that people are using a piece of technical jargon that is not really fit for the purpose they’re using it for. Granted that at least many are doing it in bad faith.

It is still a problem for any given Democratic candidate if they don’t have an articulate response to the question of what they believe students should be taught about “Whiteness.” If it turns out that, well, actually it would be fine with them if students were taught that white generally means White which generally means white supremacist (which is not a controversial academic position), then all of the “CRT doesn’t exist” discourse is going to come off as trying to lie to people about that candidate’s intentions.

If you know that when people say “CRT in schools,” they mean “teaching my kid white people are oppressors,” then saying “CRT, never met him,” and then espousing a viewpoint tending to suggest that white people are oppressors is bad politics.

In particular (and this is a point I grow increasingly despondent and frustrated over): with respect to this:

@Kimstu

“CRT”, like “Marxism”, in conservative media these days is just a Republican hivemind buzzword for “Democrats bad”. It doesn’t have any definable meaning except as a partisan label.

I think it is relevant and important whether you win or lose an election, right? Like, while again I largely agree with the sentiment, from my vantage point it seems like relying on that sentiment is leading to bad electoral results, which are bad for me. So I don’t like it.

[Babale]

@Jimmy_Chitwood

If it turns out that, well, actually it would be fine with them if students were taught that white generally means White which generally means white supremacist (which is not a controversial academic position),

Cite?

[Kimstu]

@Jimmy_Chitwood

Granted that people are using a piece of technical jargon that is not really fit for the purpose they’re using it for. Granted that at least many are doing it in bad faith.

It is still a problem for any given Democratic candidate if they don’t have an articulate response to the question of what they believe students should be taught about “Whiteness.”

In fact, ISTM that the best way to counter Republican lies about “CRT” is not to accept their bad-faith “definition” of the term, but to challenge it.

Personally, I say “What do you mean by ‘CRT’? I support teaching uncensored facts about history, including the history of race relations and white supremacy in this country, and promoting liberty and justice for all. Is that what you’re opposed to?”

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

Just so it doesn’t seem rude moving forward, I’m not going to engage with whatever it is that you feel like you’re accomplishing here.

[Babale]

@Kimstu

Personally, I say “What do you mean by ‘CRT’? I support teaching uncensored facts about history, including the history of race relations and white supremacy in this country, and promoting liberty and justice for all. Is that what you’re opposed to?”

Considering how these are the same people who published history textbooks that refer to African slaves as “immigrant workers”, I’d say that yes, that’s exactly what they are opposed to.

[iiandyiiii]

I agree with Martin that politics is unfair and dirty and Democrats need to be fighting with that in mind. The CRT bogeyman is entirely bullshit but that bullshit can’t be ignored. I think there’s probably a message that could be fashioned that would take it head on and turn it around - something like "not only do we oppose the ahistorical, harmful, and false notion that children should be taught that it’s wrong to be white, but unlike our Republican opponents, we want the facts of history to be taught to children without censorship - the real facts of the Civil War, the real facts of slavery, the real facts of Civil Rights, etc. Unlike the other guy, we don’t want our children hidden from the truth because it can be challenging to learn. "

Not sure if that’s exactly it, but maybe something like that. It would require solid message discipline, which Democrats are notoriously bad at.

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

But if you know what they want to know is your answer to the question “do you want to teach my kid that being white is bad,” then politically I believe the winning move is to give a good answer to that question. Which might include a lot of what you’re saying. But it would also include answering that question.

[Babale]

@Jimmy_Chitwood

Just so it doesn’t seem rude moving forward, I’m not going to engage with whatever it is that you feel like you’re accomplishing here.

So you’re going to make false claims and then ignore requests to back them up, but at least you’ll pretend to be polite about it? Gee, thanks!

[k9bfriender]

@Martin_Hyde

They say things like “Democrats think America is an evil country.” Then when put to the question “is America an evil country?” They want to respond: We never thought that, now here is a bunch of complex stuff I’m going to talk about in terms of slavery, systemic racism and a number of other things.

If you want some straw, then sure.

What happens is that they ask if they think if a Democrat thinks that the country is evil. The Democrat says, “No, it’s not an evil country.” Then the Republicans say, “Well, what about all this stuff you said about slavery, systemic racism and a number of other things? How can you say that the country isn’t evil if you talk about these things?”

So, they only way for the Democrats to “win” that sort of disingenuous argument is to never bring up slavery, systemic racism and a number of other things.

Which is exactly what the Republicans want. It’s a form of cancel culture, the exact kind that those who decy cancel culture when it comes from the left are perfectly okay with.

[QuickSilver]

This illustrates what I believe Martin_Hyde, and what I (to a less effective degree) am trying to say:

The average GOP voter will not glean the nuance from this article that you or I might. He or she won’t make these distinctions. He or she will simply conclude that Democrats who claim they are not teaching CRT in schools are lying because one of the biggest teachers unions is advocating for CRT based teaching in schools.

And they would be largely right.

The messaging by Democrats should not be to explain the nuance between CRT as a field of advanced study and how it’s applied in schools as a matter of practical curriculum. The messaging should be, “We don’t teach CRT to your children, we teach History based on documented facts”. Period. End of conversation. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Now, I’m not so deluded as to believe that will change hearts and minds of all Republican voters. But at least it will alleviate some confusion in the minds of those who can be convinced.

[k9bfriender]

@Jimmy_Chitwood

Has anyone ever defined Whiteness for you in a classroom setting?

I have attended quite a few. It occurs to me that I must be the only one in this thread who has.

Based on how you have characterized it, I seriously doubt it.

Maybe you have attended such, but had preconceptions that made you defensive, and take offense to anything that they tried to teach, so that you didn’t learn anything, just reinforced your resentment.

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

I would love to hear your continued speculation about what I’m like, dude.

In the meantime, is that a no?

[Babale]

@QuickSilver

The messaging by Democrats should not be to explain the nuance between CRT as a field of advanced study and how it’s applied in schools as a matter of practical curriculum. The messaging should be, “We don’t teach CRT to your children, we teach History based on documented facts” . Period. End of conversation. Lather, rinse, repeat.

That sounds like a wonderful way to shove the Overton window further and further to the Right.

@QuickSilver

Now, I’m not so deluded as to believe that will change hearts and minds of all Republican voters. But at least it will alleviate some confusion in the minds of those who can be convinced.

And I agree, it wouldn’t work. Just like denouncing Socialism didn’t stop Republicans from labeling anything and everything they don’t like as ‘Socialism’.

Seriously, if we follow this path, how long before acknowledging that most slaves were black and most slavemasters were white is denounced as “Radical CRT”?

[k9bfriender]

@Babale

And this is the reason why Socialism is still a bad word in the United States 60 years after McCarthy. How about instead of rolling onto our back and whimpering in fear, we stand up to intellectual dishonesty and propaganda?

Because apparently, that’s how you lose elections. No blame for the liars, no attempt to refute the lies, just blame for those who do not allow the lies to change their policy.

[QuickSilver]

@Babale

That sounds like a wonderful way to shove the Overton window further and further to the Right.

I submit that losing elections to Republicans has accomplished this far more effectively.

[QuickSilver]

@k9bfriender

Because apparently, that’s how you lose elections. No blame for the liars, no attempt to refute the lies, just blame for those who do not allow the lies to change their policy.

Did Democrats lose the election in Virginia because they failed to sufficiently call out Republicans as liars? Or did they lose the election because calling Republican liars (& rubes) really motivates Republican more than it does Democrats at the polls?

[steronz]

@Martin_Hyde

It does not matter. Holy shit.

While I find your argument here intriguing, I can’t say I’m convinced.

The closest analogue I can come up with at the moment, and I admit it’s a poor one, is Stand Your Ground laws. My understanding of SYG is that all of the laws on the books were written in a response to a very specific trial, the one where the pharmacist went back into his store to shoot a kid who tried to rob him and was already lying on the ground unconscious.

Almost all of the cases that are commonly described as SYG cases in the media are, in fact, bog standard self defense cases, including the murder of Trayvon Martin. So my understanding as that, even though I don’t like SYG laws, they’re not really a big deal. But it doesn’t matter – Democrats have built up this nice myth that SYG laws have given gun-toting Republicans carte blanche to murder minorities.

What have Republicans done in response? Have they acknowledged that Democrats were able to change the definition of SYG and painted it with an unfairly negative brush? Have they, therefore, said “I’m against Stand Your Ground” in order to appease the Democrats who believe that people emboldened by SYG are murdering people left and right?

Nonsense. They just don’t care, and if anything, they’ll double down. Because, let’s face it, Democrats don’t give a shit what Republicans come out and say. They’re not voting for Republicans anyway. No amount of capitulation on SYG would get a Democrat to say, “You know, that Republican is a reasonable fella.” But you know who does give a shit? Other Republicans, who will get all jazzed up about their own politicians not acting like spineless cowards.

If Biden had just come out and said, “Fuck yeah, Defund the Police!” He would have lost no votes from Republicans, and he probably would have gained some votes from progressives. Likewise, I think Democrats could probably just come out at this point and say “Every time you say you hate CRT we’re going to teach your children CRT so much harder,” and they’d probably gain votes.

This is how politics works in the culture war.