Let me explain away all your Buffy plot holes! *Spoilers Obviously*

Cafe Society
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My group of friends are a sometimes critical bunch, the type that picks out plot holes and logical inconsistanciesfairly quicky in all storytelling art. I’ve developed a habit of trying to explain away these problems as logically as i can.Sure my explanations arn’t canon, and sure they are sometimes a stretch…But i find great satisfaction of making the attempt to rationalize anything people can throw at me.

Let’s choose Buffy for instance, the exchange would go something like this:

Person: Why is it that the grunt vamps come off as so weak that dusting them becomes a simple task to Buffy, yet the main character vampires (Angel, Spike, ect) appear to be near Buffy’s strength?

Me: We learn in AtS that Darla was sired by the Master (the strongest vampire we know of) Who then sired Angel, Who sired Drusilla, who sired Spike. It is obvious that the strength of the Master went down through his line.

Person: What of the people Spike Sires in season seven, Buffy doesn’t seem to have much trouble with them

Me: Obviously be the time we reach the Master’s great great great grandsire the power trait is diminished

Person: With that logic Darla should be stronger than Angel, and Drusilla should be stronger than Spike

Me: Not so, obviously a person’s strength increase upon being sired is directly proportional to their strength as a human. Women who are physically weaker than men as humans are thus weaker vampires.

ect ect ect

Now give me some Buffy inconsistancies (info learned from Angel is fair game) and let’s see if i can rationalize anything you guys throw at me…A few important things…

-This thread isn’t for insulting lazy writing, nor is it for defending it. It’s simply an excersize to find the best way to “explain away” logical problems in the plot

  • I may have to make some stretches cause i know you guys are good, if you don’t like my explanation and think you could provide a better one…please do

  • I can’t come up with anything that directly conflicts with anything we learn in the shows, however i can add whatever back stories i want that occur offscreen so long as nothing in the episodes makes the event impossible.

  • Join in, provide quotes for verification, and try your best to stump me.

If this thread is somewhat succesfull i may try it for Harry Potter or Star Wars…and if it fades into obscurity, ah well.

Let us begin!

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Or else they’re just, you know, better fighters. It isn’t anything magical, it’s just that they have more experence, better skills, better instincts and more brains than other vampires. Just like someone like Gunn is better than most humans.

I’ve always had the impression that Angel, especially, was so good in a fight - especially against other vamps - simply because he was so badass.

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It is obvious to me that Spike and Angel are stronger than your average vamp, apart even from their extraordinary fighting skills. I don’t get the impression that William thw Bloody was exactly a martial arts master before he was sired.

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I’m not with the OP’s explanation of Angel, Spike etc.'s strength, in that I don’t think we’re meant to believe the Master is uniquely more powerful than the average vampire.

Seems plain to me that vampires get more powerful as they grow older, and the Master, being at least 400 years old, would simply have become very, very powerful. That age and the power that came with it explains why his bones didn’t turn to dust after he was staked.

But here’s a question for the OP: Why is it that initially, the Turok-Han were so powerful that even Buffy, the Slayer, needed several tries to bring down only one, but by the last episode they were fluffy little puppies and several could be taken out by the likes of Giles and Dawn, or Anya and Andrew?

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As far as the Turok han…The only thing that makes sense to me is they are weaker “kinds” of the one Buffy initially fought. The only ones Buffy had all the trouble with were ones raised through the portal by blood…as they go down into the hellmouth for battle i rationalized the army as being weaker or “not fully empowered” ubervamps…I even think the makeup looks a little different

So i think the blood ritual is what paranormally empowered those nasty guys.

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Seeing as how Angel season 5 introduced us to the idea that if a vampire with a soul sires someone, they new vamp actually obtains a small piece of that soul (ridiculous if you ask me) I don’t see what’s so far fetched about the idea of great power being transfered through the vamping process.

And no i don’t think it’s just because the master was old that he was so powerfull…in fact i think he wasn’t in his prime in season 1 Buffy. If we believe that vamps just get more powerfull as they get older we have to come up with a lot more explanations for Spike/Angel’s incredible strength early on…how old was Spike when he killed his first slayer? I don’t exactly recall

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I never really noticed that. They usually killed other vamps by being faster or smarter, not stronger. Has Angel ever beaten an vampire as big as him through brute strength?

As for William - remember, it was about 20 years between he was turned and when he killed his first slayer. You can learn a lot of combat skills in that time, especially when you have such good teachers. And just because as a human he didn’t show any fighting ability, that doesnt mean it wasn’t there, only that it was hidden beneath his whinging, foppish human persona.

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I sure have seen Angel whoop some demons much larger than he.We may all have to agree to disagree on this issue of Angel/Spike’s strength issue :slight_smile:

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My alternate explanation for why Angel and Spike were so much tougher than other, older vampires:

Vampires, with rare exceptions, specifically seek out weak, stupid, and easily controlled humans to turn into vampires.

See, vampires aren’t real big on loyalty. They are not, by nature, team players. So, when a vampire is creating some minions for him/herself, they aren’t going to go after anyone who, when turned into a vampire, will be able to outfight/outsmart their sire.

Obviously, what constitutes a “less powerful” vampire depends on how tough the sire is. The Master, being extremely old, sought out Darla because he knew she’d make a tough vampire, and he needed a good lieutenant. Because he was so strong, he didn’t have to worry about her being a threat to his own power. The same holds true for Kakistos and Mr. Trick.

Angel and Spike, however, were unusual cases. Because of the peculiarities of their circumstances, neither were showing their true potential as humans. Angel was a drunken lout when Darla turned him, but that was largely an act of rebellion against his overbearing father. Spike was a dandy with a mother complex who spent most of his time writing bad poetry. They both, at the time, seemed like perfect candidates for easily manipulated/bullied henchmen. However, had either, as a human, been put in a position that truly tested their mettle, they’d have proved as remarkable relative to humans as they later proved to be relative to other vampires.

So here’s another one for the OP. I got my own explanation, but I want to see what you’ve got, first:

Why, especially after season four, was Spike noticably less evil than other vampires?

They did? When did that happen?

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The 1940’s flashback episode

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I never got the idea that Spike was especially powerful despite his record of killing previous slayers. I always just assumed he was resourceful, for lack of a better word, and just powerful enough to give Buffy and her predecessors trouble. Of course, I’m a Buffy noob and don’t know anything at all about Spike’s origins which, apparently, would disabuse me of my notions.

Can someone fill me in on the full story of his siring? Seems he was some sort of poet-warrior as a human?

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That claim was just a surmise on the former-submarine-officer vampire’s part, and must be considered inconclusive.

Especially since Webs the former psychology student, and presumably other vampires sired by Spike (under the influence of the First Evil) after Spike got his soul back, showed no similar evidence of a “piece of a soul.”

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Webs sure was talkier than a normal vamp, still connected to a great evil…yet seemingly somewhat intrested in Buffy’s feelings. There could be evidence for a sliver of a soul there. I do think the idea is silly though so i may as well not defend it.

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No, Spike was just a poet-poet. A BAD poet. He wrote bad whiny poetry for a girl totally out of his league, leading to an embarrassing scene where she tells him straight out that she’s out of his league. He’s a total wimp. Drusilla sired him, because he happened to brush against her just when she was saying she wanted a new playmate. Amusingly, William’s (that’s Spike’s real name, Buffy calls him that every once in a while) original accent was higher class than the Cockney that Spike adopts. That’s the rationale people use when someone disses James Marsters’ accent - Spike himself is faking the accent, so it’s okay if it’s not quite right.

ThatGuy, explain away this plot hole: in the pilot, Angel says to Buffy “I thought you’d be taller”. However, it’s made clear in Season 2 that he spied on Buffy with Whistler when she was just becoming the Slayer. So he actually already knew how tall she was.

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He only saw her from a distance, he could have perceived her as taller from so far away. I think that a lot of people would be suprised to see how short SMG is in real life if you met her face to face for the first time.

Also it is possible that Angel was just nervous/trying to make a dark and mysterious impression…he did seem to act weird in that scene…Maybe trying to size her up.

Also he would not want her to know he was spying on her, he could have been purposely trying to mislead her.

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Sorry for the continuing hijack but I love Buffy threads and always try to learn from each one.

Miller’s post seems to indicate he was something more.

Paraphrasing: [Spike], at the time, seemed like [a perfect candidate] for [a] easily manipulated/bullied henchmen. However, had [Spike], as a human, been put in a position that truly tested [his] mettle, [he’d have proven] as remarkable relative to humans
How would Spike have proven remarkable in comparison to other humans if he was just a poet?

I’m not trying to argue, by the way. I’m honestly curious.

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As far as Spike being “less evil” than other vamps, i just attribute it to him being a more sensitive and idealistic human…and those personality traits transfered into his vamped out self. Even as a vampire he very obviously had an overly romantic view of being “in love”. I don’t believe he was actually less evil, just as vile a killer as the rest…just a vile killer with an inferiority complex who still longed for romantic acceptance above all else.

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Have you ever read stories where a person gets stuck in extraordinary circumstances and discovers strength, abilities, inner resources etc. that they never knew they had before? (“before, I was just Joe, the guy down the street, but after the flood, I pulled together and I was able organize an entire town, save puppies and kittens, and keep my home safe for days, I didn’t know I had it in me!”)

Miller’s point was that William had never been anywhere near an extraordinary circumstance, so no one knew he had anything in him. He was still just “William, the guy down the street” the twit (not even really a poet). Had something come up where he might have needed to show strength or character he would have shown it and been remarkable - but nothing had ever come up.

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No, he was utterly pathetic as a human, from all external evidence. So was Angel, because there was never any reason in their lives for them to be other than totally pathetic. However, my theory is that if circumstances had been different for them, they would have shown themselves to be great men. Perhaps if, after being rejected by Cecily, William had joined the Foreign Legion in a fit of romantic pique, he would, I think, have discovered that he was a lot stronger and braver than he had ever thought. But nothing in his life had ever required him to be particularly brave or strong, and so he never manifested any of those traits until after he was vamped.

ThatGuy: I remember that now. I wouldn’t take that particular vamps explanation as gospel, though. I does, however, remind me of something that is gospel, and shows conclusively that some (if not many, or even most) vampires retain some vestige of a soul: The Judge. When he first is reassembled, the first person he judges is a vampire. The one with glasses who translated the text on the Judge for Spike. That vampire, an otherwise normal vamp, still had some good in him, somewhere. Then Angelus shows up, newly desouled, and is judged… and passes. So one vamp (himself a direct descendent of Angelus, from before he was cursed) still has some goodness (read: a soul) in him, but Angelus has none at all. That says to me that the idea that some vampires retain remenants of their original souls has been canon since the second season.

Which is why I think Spike was marginally less evil than most other vampires. He didn’t want to destroy the world in season two, just mess it up a bit. And eventually, he chooses to redeem himself of his own free will. The fact that, as you say, he “longed for romantic acceptance” is itself evidence that he had more of the old William in him than most other vamps: he cares what other people think. That’s a form (stunted, in this case) of empathy, which I would think would be impossible for a soulless creature.

I call it the Jello Mould Theory of Spiritual Transference. Basically, a person’s mind is like a Jello mould, and the soul is the Jello. No matter what kind of Jello you put in the mould, it always comes out the same basic shape. Similarly, when someone is turned into a vampire, they have the same memories and (usually) basic personality, the same likes and dislikes, the same level of intelligence and creativity, but they express those facets of their personality in different ways. When someone is vamped, their old soul is scooped out and a new one (the demon spirit) repalces it. Much like you can take a Jello mould full of delicious strawberry Jello, dump it out, and fill it with a less tasty flavor. Like pork. But sometimes, the mould isn’t scrubbed completely clean, and little of the old Jello remains. Spike’s pork Jello soul is partly tempered by little nuggets of strawberry Jello, making him just ever so slightly less revolting. Angelus, on the other hand, had his mould scrapped clean, bleached, and sandblasted. Angelus has no strawberries at all: he’s pure pork.

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Those are some great ideas Miller, but i have a hard time accepting a soul as anything but a “you have one or you don’t” thing. I took the Judge’s power not so much as a way to identify those with remnants of “good” or “souls”, but to weed out those who have DESIRES that could be considered human in nature. For instance the bookworm vamp with the glasses desired knowledge( because i’m sure he did in his human life), any self respecting evil being should not desire knowledge…it should desire power. Spike desired Love…again not something evil in nature and certainly “reeks of humanity”. Make any kind of sense?