Let the dialogue on morality begin!

The BBQ Pit
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needs to engage in a dialogue on moral issues. And you know what? I agree. MY sense of morality is OUTRAGED at the shit the right has been up to lately, and I’m MORE than ready to talk about it, so LET’S TALK ABOUT SOME GODDAM FUCKING MORAL VALUES, SHALL WE?

  1. Let’s talk about TORTURE, shall we? I gotta tell you, my personal morality alarm goes off like a fucking air raid siren when those in power start wanting to TORTURE people. I think it’s FUCKING WRONG.It’s IMMORAL to torture prisoners. IM-FUCKING-MORAL. Could someone tell me where the fuck the Bible says, “And ye shall pile our prisoners up in naked pyramids and rape the young boys and stick stuff up other priosners’ butts”? Oh, it DOESN’T say that? But you still love your fucking Bushistas, don’t you? Fucking hypocrites!!!

And you know what? When you call Democrats racists for opposing the nomination of a man who thinks the Geneva Convention rules regarding torture are FUCKING QUAINT, you sound like a bunch of stinking LIARS. It’s NOT WRONG to view a person who thinks TORTURE is a GOOD THING as a potential scumbag and lying weasel, whether he’s white, Hispanic or black. Saying it is racist to do so puts you on the side of said lying legal weasel and scumbag. You SURE you want a piece of that action? Oh, that’s right, you ALREADY bought yourselves a piece of that action. Accomplices to a lying weasel and scumbag. I bet your mothers are sooooo PROUD of you.

  1. It is OBVIOUS that George Bush and his cronies started a FUCKING WAR under false pretenses. They said they were sure there were WMDs in Iraq, despite the fact that they had plenty of very solid intel indicating that there WERE NO WMDs IN IRAQ. They LIED.

And they didn’t just lie about the fucking WMDs. Various Bush administration offiicals did every fucking thing they could to convince Ma and Pa Kettle that Iraq was responsible for 9/11 short of actually SAYING Iraq was responsible for 911.

Now, the thing about MORALITY is, you don’t get off on technicalities. It doesn’t matter if you cross your fingers behind your back when you tell a fucking lie, you’re still a fucking liar. If you say things that are CLEARLY designed to make people associate Iraq with 911, even though you didn’t specifically say Iraq caused 911, it’s STILL a FUCKING LIE.

It is not always morally wrong to lie-- the wrongness of the lie dpeneds on intent of the lie and the outcome of the results achieved by the lie. Based on THESE criteria, the lies told by the Bush Asministration’s officials are among the VILEST, MOST EVIL LIES ever told by ANY crew of DAMNED LYING SCUMBAGS.

  1. Y’know what? Democracy isn’t just some fucking empty label you can wave around like “mom” and “apple pie” to make yourself seem more patriotic. Democracy is a form of government that demands free and open elections. When you STEAL AN ELECTION, as the Republicans did in 2000, you ASSAULT democracy. Do it often enough, and you DESTROY democracy.

This is MORALLY WRONG. Implicit in the fact of being an American political party is a willingness to act within the American politicial system. If you’re going to be just a bunch of fucking goonish thugs who’ll do any damned thing to gain power, why don’t you just get it over with and call yourselves what you are – just another cheap junta looking for some kind of coup de tat? Republicans? Hell, no – you’re just sleazy banana republicans.

These three points just scratch the surface. I have TONS of morality I want to discuss with the right, with Republicans and with moderates. I’m a liberal, not because of any LACK of morality, but precisely because of the morality of most liberal positions on issues that makes them appealing to me.

So in light of the points I have raised and many others as yet undiscussed: WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???!!!??? If you poeple are so damn moral, how did you EVER become cheerleaders and apologists for the worst bunch of filthy vermin ever to infest the White House?

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Oh, dear.

Well, from the response, I would say that this isn’t a hot topic for alot of people.

I would hasten to add that I do not share that apathy.

My Dad had a bumper sticker years ago that said. “the moral majority is neither.”

It would seem that times have changed. Still not moral, but enough of a majority, sad to say.
I hear you, but have resolved to not waste my energy in rants. I would rather reveal the party and all who hold to this loyalty for what it is and hold it accountable for all it’s done. In a weird way, I am glad that Bush won–let him clean up his mess and take the fall for all that follows. Unless they find a way to blame it (as everything else) on Clinton…

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Or, just possibly, the topic has been flogged to death, across the River Styx, around all seven levels of hell, back up to earth, to the farthest reaches of space, and back again.

Possibly.

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Rant #1 fits magnificently with your user name. But I totatlly agree, people are really fucked.

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Or possibly, nobody wants to pick those fights. I chose the clearest examples of amoral behavior I could think of to start with. I got more. Lots more.

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Like swearing you m&tr-f$@^er. heehee

Seriously, I doubt you’re going to get a debate going here about torture, the illegality about the Iraqi war, and Bush stealing the presidency.

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This is kinda like picking at a scab, isn’t it.

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No you don’t, you prattling little poop-flinging monkey. First off, you damned well know you don’t want to ‘discuss’ anything, or you wouldn’t be posting like an asshole, and you wouldn’t be posting in the Pit. And you don’t have the three points your head wounds lead you to believe you have, much less ‘lots more’. This is just your regularly scheduled stupid rant. Claims of torture, check. STOLE TEH ELECTION OMG!, check. Started a war under ‘false pretenses’, check. Lemme guess, the ace up your sleeve involves some retardedness about turning America into theocracy?

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You got the Pubbie talking points right, so I guess you get some points for that. Ain’t many people round here buying what you’re selling, sadly.

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Trying to explain morality to a Bush apologist is like trying to explain astronomy to a flu virus.

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Hell, I ain’t a Bush apologist and I think the OP is in my ‘Top 10 disingenuous OP’s list’. There’s no real request for a debate. There’s a passel of statements loaded with emotional content and lack of respect for the other side. That well was poisoned before anyone even clicked on the thread.

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What eleanorigby said. Unfortunately, the “clean up” will probably be rife with doublespeak; expect our chocolate rations to increase every week, and be prepared to hear that Clinton and the “intellectual elite” actually got us into Iraq and that Bush has been trying all along to get our boys back home.

My plan: Lie low, avoid the radar, don’t get pulled into pointless fights, and save energy for 2008. And for God’s sake, don’t drink the Kool-Aid.

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I guess I haven’t made the reason I started this thread clear. I feel that the strength of the left is its morality. We are not the ones who generally advocate treating people like shit – bombing them, jailing them, letting them suffer in poverty and sickness without lifting a finger to help them, backing pregnant women into corners by destrouying their options – this is generally the work of the right.

I’m saying the left needs to stop couching its viewpoint in the language of rhetoric and start expressing the real moral outrage we feel about the filthy, scummy, verminous activities the right gets up to at every opportunity. It is hugely, hugely, HUGELY to the left’s advantage to engage in a moral debate on the issues. We hold the high ground. We can kick conservative ass from here to the moon on moral issues.

Whenever someone calls for a debate over moral values, we should take that as an opportunity to make the right squirm as we confront them with their own viciousness.

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Rrrrriiggghhhtttt…

The same left that nominated a traitor as its Presidential candidate in 2004. The same left that insisted in portraying Bush as the anti-christ in the Iraq campaign, thereby giving heart to our enemies and causing increased American casualties. The same left that has kept numerous federal judgeships vacant because they would damned before they approved anyone nominated by Bush. And just because you won’t be happy unless someone brings up Clinton: the same highly moral left that didn’t have the honor or integrity to remove Clinton from office after he was impeached for committing a felony while in office.

Yep, lotsa morality there. You betcha.

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No, you can’t. The people who voted based on “moral values” tended to vote Republican, and they did so with knowledge of each parties platform. The issue isn’t that the red-staters are ignorant of how valiant and wonderful the Democrats are, it’s that their values are different then those of the Democratic candidates.

This DOESN’T MEAN THAT THEY LIKE TORTURE, and it DOESN’T MEAN THAT THEY HATE ARABS, and it DOESN’T MEAN THAT THEY’RE WAR-MONGERING HATE-BUCKETS. It means that the moral issues that are important to them are different then those that are important to you. They have different priorities.

You want the Democrats to get Red-state votes again? I think that’d be easy enough: take a stance against Roe v. Wade and make abortion a state issue, adopt the NRA’s platform on gun rights, and don’t touch any gay rights issues with a 10-foot pole for another decade or so, at least at the federal level.

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There is an (un)surprising lack of morality on both sides of the aisle. It’s the nature of the beast. Morality, IMHO, is based on how individuals act and lead their lives, not on how governemets act and impose themselvs on people’s lives.

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I gotta toss down on this one…

Clothahump…you’re an idiot.

The Senate has approved the vast majority of Bush’s judicial appointments.

Kerry is no more a ‘traitor’ than anyone else who opposed the Vietnam war. He just had a higher profile and got some ink.

And where do the republican senators who voted against impeachment fall on this continuum of yours? I hope with the same lack of morality.

In short, for God’s sake, at least try to debate, will you?

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Ah, but the thing is, it’s the MORAL elements of my leftish ideas that make me emotional on issues. I think the left has overall come off as a bunch of vacuous vacillators because they refuse to embrace the moral content of their beliefs. We need some more white-hot passion to counter the blandness of what I would call “whitebread liberalism.”

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Without going into a debate with hyou over the particulars of each issue – granted, it’s ground we’ve covered before – I think each of these accusations has its basis in morality – it’s not a technical matter of “it would work better if we did A rather than B.” That is, I’m not debating whether winning hearts and minds is accomplished better with bombs or with propaganda, I’m saying it’s WRONG to bomb people without a damned good reason, generally involving them bombing, or being on the point of bombing, ourselves.

That’s the reason I chose those issues, not that I thought that they were new issues, but that I thought they were moral issues.

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You haven’t really debated any of my points, just established some of your own, and a pretty weak bunch they are. [ soup nazi mode ]“No hijack for you!” [ /soup nazi mode]