The whole bloody thread is you claiming that corporations are corrupt, keep governments in power who wouldn’t otherwise be in power, and are backed by the military. It is kind of late now to say, “Bwuh?”, and act all innocent, don’t you think?
I’m gonna back up Uzi here, so I pose the question to the OP and Gonzomax since I guess I will receive a cliched anti war reply sooner or later, anyway the question is quite simple, if the US leaves Afghanistan, like you wish, just packs up and goes, what do you think will replace the current Afghan government, and morally, would it be the right thing to do considering all the alternatives?
I await your response.
Some people have been aware of and vocal about the problem for a long time. Up to your ears in the trough, you haven’t heard.
The OP is actually about ending our adventure in Afghanistan on military, financial and humanitarian grounds. You have been provided ample cites by both Gonzo and myself to justify the OP. The few that you’ve actually chosen to address have received your standard one-note rejoinder, “You’re wrong.” I expect that will be your response to this.
We don’t give a shit. Any govt friendly to corporate interests is just fine. Let me refer you to the OP.
But then
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/oil.html
We offered the Taliban a deal for their cooperation.
You have no more talent for dancing than does Uzi although you sing the same song. You guys are going to have to come up with something for side B.
But ‘we’ do give a shit, it’s the raison detre for us being there you dumbass, and if the Taliban were ‘friendly’ to those evil corporate interests, then it wouldn’t be in their interests to have Al Queda in Afghanistan.
There’s a little thing called 9/11 which pretty much provides the rationale for the actual conflict. This isn’t Iraq, there’s an actual legitimate reason for going in there.
Not to mention that Hamid Karzais government enjoys, even after the corruption scandal, a good measure of support.
*Hamid Karzai as President of Afghanistan for 2010
Excellent- 28%
Good- 44%
Fair- 19%
Poor- 8%
No Opinion- 1%
*
Yes we did, and? Remember, we only invaded and deposed that government because it was responsible for allowing a terrorist organisation to attack the US on it’s soil. And NATO and US and neighbouring regions all accept that the Karzai government is a hell of a lot better than the prospect of any Taliban government, which I might add, only has 6% support within the country.
So again, I ask you and Gonzo, since we’re terribly unenlightened folk, if the US leaves Afghanistan, like you wish, just packs up and goes, what do you think will replace the current Afghan government, and morally, would it be the right thing to do considering all the alternatives?
Insult all you want, however I’ll always have the upper hand because I rely on facts, where as you rely on emotion.
Okay, so where is this magical pipeline?
Also, where is the suggestion in your link that they invade any country to promote US interests? It looks pretty benign on the face of it: A committee investigating the importance of a particular region in the world to its interests. I’m sure they have one for Canada, too, but I’m not too worried that bombers will be flying overhead anytime soon.
Our argument, such as it is, is not with the Taliban, it’s with Al Qeda, our friends, the Saudis.
After 9/11, the Taliban offered to hand Osama over for trial IF we produced some evidence of his involvement. We refused.
I can understand why. OBL and most of the hijackers were Saudis and SA is our “friend” with the deep oil pockets.
It is well documented that AQ has moved to Pakistan and there are few left in Afghanistan.
So what does Afghanistan look like after we graciously withdraw in a timely manner?
We turn it over to the Taliban with 2 conditions.
-
Allow the UN to seal the Pakistani border. Allow Afghanistani refugees to return and contain the Saudis and their sympathizers in Pakistan. With that done, we can lean on Pakistan to lean on AQ when they have nowhere to run.
-
Agree to encourage opium production for medicinal uses and let the UN set prices and oversee distribution. Suddenly, everyone’s prosperous, corruption is eliminated and, as the world’s foremost morphine producer, for the first time since time began, Afghanistan is a nation with a real place in the world. And one of the few with a well-cared for populace and sustainable agriculture.
I predict the Taliban would jump on it. We might sweeten the offer to include our clearing their country of our unexploded ordinance before we go. That would be polite.
Of course, there’s a downside to turning it over to the Taliban. Aside from Haliburton’s downsizing, it’s that hard-core Islamic thing. Burkas? Beheading? Nose stuck in the Qran forever? No cable?
Yes, that’s a nut we’ll have to swallow for a few years.
Unthreatened, Islam has no problem with new ideas. Threatened, they retreat into jihad.
Take your choice, people.
What is this we shit? It is unlikely that it will be your head that is removed from your shoulders, or you who will have to wear the burkha and be beaten or stoned for not doing so. And all because you don’t want to get your hands dirty and clean up the mess. Lovely.
Durand Line - Wikipedia Good luck sealing the border. It is 1600 miles of mountainous terrain. Pakistan and Afghanistan have fought wars over the border. They do not even agree on what the border is.
Yes, I’m no more likely to be beheaded or get my hands dirty on the ground than you are, dufus.
And, while I consider all religion to be institutionalized superstition and any which relegate women to be chattel to be especially pernicious (Islam is not alone) I am sure of two things.
- It is not our fucking place to militarily change things
- What we’ve accomplished in nine years of occupation has not been worth the price to anyone but the war profiteers and the drug lords.
Get a fucking life. And respond to some cites or stfu.
And yet I am the one who worked in Yemen training locals who eventually replaced me. I did get my hands dirty and there was a chance I could have been attacked by terrorists.
We went there with the military to change things. We both agree that we haven’t necessarily changed things for the better.
Because we haven’t done what is necessary to change the basics like the culture that allows thugs to run the country and keep women in chains.
I’ve responded to your cites. There is no pipeline no matter what you seem to think caused the war. Maybe you should go to New York and see if there is an actual hole in the ground rather than keep going on about how there is some big oil conspiracy that caused the invasion.
Don’t be rude when the facts contradict you.
Where I live, the gas retailers set their own mark-up above the cost that they pay to the distributors. That you do not believe this is your problem, so drop the nastiness.
That was a dishonest response. "white mans burden’. They can not take money (your tax money) from us unless we offer it. We have the military power. They can not extort from us. We buy off the Afghanis so they will fight for us. When the other side offers more or threatens their families ,the rules change. They all know we will leave someday. The Taliban and the “insurgents” live there. They have known war for generations, like us. But they live there and we will leave. Then they have to rebuild a society run by warlords, corrupt politicians and religious extremists. What is our payoff?
Perhaps I was a bit ambitious with my idea about “sealing” the border. Obviously, we’re looking at an essentially intractable problem resulting from the colonial period. I don’t know if the Taliban would be willing to recognize the border (unlike Karzai) and officially split the Pashtun region if we turned Afghanistan over to them.
The point tho is that if we receive from them verifiable assurances that they will not offer sanctuary to AQ, our “stated” mission is accomplished.
There is no doubt, in my mind at least, that given the Taliban’s compliance with world opinion in eliminating poppy cultivation back in 2000, that in exchange for internationally recognized sovereignty and a legitimate basis for a solid GNP based on morphine, we could work something out with them regarding smuggling and harboring terrorists. A good deal all around except for oil companies, war profiteers and drug traffickers. Problem is, these assholes determine our policies.
Gee, just imagine if the US had to legitimately compete with Russia, China and India for the development of an oil pipeline thru Afghanistan. Where would the profit lie in that?
I’ll tell you. In the US Treasury.
The imaginary pipeline that only exists in your mind (such as it is)? That one?
Missed edit.
There is also the question of who will control development and profits from the “recently” discovered mineral deposits.
There was time when eco-tourism (happy Afghans, safe cross-continent roads/hiking trails and all the dope you could do) did well in this strategically located and agriculturally blessed wasteland of abundance.
I do believe that if pressed by the prospect of losing that trade, the Taliban would loosen up on just about everything. If a Hippy ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.
Fuck You All, one more time.
Uzi?
Yeah, like we invented bribery.
And adhay seems to think that the Russians, Chinese, and Indians compete ‘fairly’, too. Unbelievable.
Try to listen. The Taliban are the latest edition of Afghanistan’s historical resistance to colonialism.
We’ve armed them and insist that they fight a war that neither of us can win. Pipeline or no pipeline, our war machine sucks dollars out of taxpayers’ pockets in our endless war on terror. That’s the game plan, the way we do business and the way we treat the world in the name of the American People.
We can put the Taliban to better use than that but not if you have it your way.
No, the corrupt govts of Russia, China and India (forget Pakistan) don’t play fair. WTF? they have the same problems we do. Satisfy the domestic need for cheap oil, don’t ask where it came from or how we got it.
If the Taliban had the sole negotiating power with the extraction Industries of the various countries, we’d see some honest capitalism and a free market. That’s something the Corporate Kleptocracy will not abide.
Hence, our present involvement.
They did at one time and used it to support terrorists rather than promote their citizen’s well being.
Cite?
Bollocks, if anything, the Taliban are the extention of Pakistans ‘imperial’ ambitions, since they were funded and in part created by them. Not to mention, the Talibans have only around 6% support of the local population, where as NATO has about 60%.
So you’re implying the following:
Taliban = Noble warriors of the people
Everything else in Afghanistan = Scumbags
Right?
Yeah, because that sentence implies we have any control over the Taliban.
What’s the big deal of Indian influence in Afghanistan, it’s a democratic state, and Afghans are usually pro Indian anyway.
So presently Adhay, considering the fact the Taliban have very little support, the Afghan Government has a lot of support, as well as NATO in defending that government, what’s the credible alternative which is morally right?
I keep posing this question to you and I don’t hear any credible answers.