Let's debate "participatory economics"

In xtisme’s ongoing thread on communism – – Planet of the Shapes mentioned “participatory economic.” I’d heard of this but didn’t know much about it, so I looked it up on the Wikipedia. Apparently it’s an alternative to both capitalism and state socialism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_economics:

Interesting idea. Issues for debate:

  1. Would parecon work?

  2. Assuming it would work, are there any non-practical reasons (e.g., reasons of ethics or values) to reject it?

  3. How would a parecon-based economy and society be different than what we’ve got now?

  4. How could be get there from here? What political, legal, and other institutional reforms would be necessary?

Oh, and here’s a few relevant websites relevant to parecon:

http://www.parecon.org/

http://www.zmag.org/books/pareconv/parefinal.htm

http://home.flash.net/~comvoice/32cPareconOverall.html/

http://www.zmag.org/debateiso.htm

http://www.zmag.org/calllinicosalbertdebate.htm

http://www.zmag.org/lm.htm

http://www.zmag.org/debatelibmuni.htm

http://www.zmag.org/monbiotalbertdebate.htm

Offhand, it seems that the larger the economy gets, the more overhead there is in feedback and the slower the economy is to adjust to wants and needs. I guess if that doesn’t bother one, it seems nice. It does seem like it would be very hard ot manage, however. A significant amount of time is dedicated to, uh, meta-managing rather than actually doing anything productive (like actually producing or managing).

Sounds like plain ol’ communism to me. And, regardless of the “intent”, it would require a repressive, authoritarian regime to enforce this system since people are not allowed to make their own decisions.

Government by bureaucracy!!

Why hasn’t anyone thought of this before?
:eek: :eek: :smiley:

I especially liked this bit:

Hazzah for brute strength. Although, how this is not an innate talent, I’m not at all sure. And who will determine which jobs require more effort? Workers councils, of course! Ah, the possibilities for political vitriol absolutely booggle the mind.

I think you are misunderstanding it. In fact the average person would have more power to make decisions in a parecon system them in a capitalist one. Instead of corporations you have workers councils, in which everyone has one vote. Don’t like your workers council? Start another one.

One of the arguments they make which made a lot of sense to me is that what you get paid should be determined purely by effort:

Of course, they are forgetting the primary aspect of any given job which determines how it is compensated for. They list “talent, training, job placement, luck, and effort”, butt they leave out the value placed on that job by the person who is paying for it. The only justifiable means to determine how a particular job should be compensated is the confluence of the value placed on it by the employer and the employee. That is how much the employer is willing to pay and how much the employee is willing to work for. Everything else is just other people’s attempt to justify their own world view.

Why?

Because any other method requires that at least one of the participants be coerced.

What if I want to start a company that DOESN’T HAVE worker’s councils? The great thing about capitalism is that you if you want to set up a company governed by workers councils, NO ONE IS STOPPING YOU.

So, if you hired me to fix your leaky faucet, you’d be happy paying me if I put in a lot of effort, but didn’t actually fix the leak?

So what? We already have minimum-wage laws, they are coercive and they do work as intended. (And, contrary to some conservative rhetoric, raising the minimum wage does not drive up unemployment, according to studies of states where it has been raised: http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/briefingpapers_bp150) This is “unjustifiable” only if you accept the ethical premises of absolute economic libertarianism, which I do not.

All these studies show is that the effect of small changes cannot be measured due to so many other factors. If changing the MW did not affect unemployment, we’d just raise it to $100/hr and everyone would be happy. It is silly on the face of it to claim that the MW does not affect unemployment.

Well, once you accept that liberty is NOT the ultimate goal, you can justify anything. So where does that leave us?

No need to shout, Mr Mace. Well i guess you could start up a workers council of one. Then you can make all the decisions yourself. But of course as soon as you employed someone else you would in effect lose control of half the ‘company’. That may seem unfair to the person who started it, but i would argue that a system in which everyone has a say at their work is more fair overall. The person who started the company loses out, but everyone else gains.

The person who did the repair would be paid according to their effort. The amount i would ‘pay’ would be for the job itself, so presumably wouldn’t be affected if they sent an incompetant person who tried hard, but didn’t get it done, and had to send someone else.

Not so. The workers councils can choose to employ, or not employ, whoever they want. The price they are charged for labour is the social opportunity cost. The price the person gets for their labour is determined by effort. These two amounts will usually be different.

Sorry. I sometimes prefer caps for emphasis because, on my computer at least, the bold font is harldy noticeable.

But where would the money come from if not from you? Do I have to pay someone for their effort to fix your leaky faucet? And then who pays for the person who has to come in afterwards and actually fix the faucet (which was not fixed the first time, even though a lot of effort was expended to fix it)?

I think you missed my point. If prices are fixed by an outside agent, people are not free to charge what they think something is worth or pay more for something if they think it’s worth more. There is a finite amount of everything, and people value things differently. A shiny silk disco shirt has almost no value to me, but it has a lot of value to people who like that type of clothing. There is no way to know something’s value until you find out what another person is willing to pay for it. Not what the say they would pay in a survey, but what they actually plunk their money down for.

Not at all. That statement presents a false dichotomy: libertarianism or moral nihilism. That’s like Pascal basing his “wager” on the assumption that Catholicism and atheism are our only options, it’s nonsense. There are many highly developed value-systems other than the libertarian and you know it.

Parecon theorists justify their position as follows – again, from :

Sorry, that excerpt was from the same Wikipedia article excerpted in the OP.

But you do accept basic concepts of freedom of action and association. The idea that one should be free to associate and act (within the limit that you not act to adversely affect such freedoms of others) seems pretty basic. It is the foundation for the idea that individuals should be allowed charge as much as they want for thier own labor, that is, their own actions. It is the foundation for the idea that individuals should be able to refuse to work for less than this amount. The only thing required to get to the gist of “economic libertarianism” is that you extend the same freedoms to employers.

I do not understand this. You are talking about the price a workers council is charged for labor being different from the amount recieved by the laborer. Is there a type in there?

I’m a lawyer, and if I take your case, you’re gonna pay me something, whether I win or lose.

Only if I agree to hire you on this basis in the first place. :wink:
Isn’t capitalism great!