Let's Discuss Musical Improvisation

My daughter has a school assignment to gather people’s attitudes towards
musical improvisation. She’s doing quite a bit of in-person research and interviewing, but I suggested we tap into the vast SDMB knowledge.

These are the types of questions she’s been using to get discussions going.

How important is improvisation relative to composition?

How do you define it?

Do you enjoy listening to it? Participating in it?

Do you have any favorite artists who excel at it?

Any favorite quotes or thoughts of your own?

Can (should) you prepare to do improvisation or is it (by definition) done entirely on the spot?
Thanks!

There’s always a danger of “painting yourself into a corner” musically when improvising. I can think of a number of cuts which just fell apart after a promising sustained progression because the musicians couldn’t think of where to take it next (the first cut of Tangerine Dream’s Poland album is a particularly painful example).

Plus the risk of slipping into one of your ruts, i.e., while groping around for “where to take it next” you fall into a known motif or riff that you’ve already done too many times.

I attended a coed boarding school for high school, and the choirmaster was also a phenomenally talented organist and pianist. He would routinely finish the last hymn during chapel, wait for the closing benediction, and then immediately begin a wild improvisation that started with a theme taken from the final hymn. During the month of December, the improvisation would almost invariably end up with a Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer segue in the middle. During ‘Hell Week’ for the musicals, the segue in the middle would include snippets of the show’s songs. Just like watching the Simpsons opening credits closely for Bart’s chalkboard and the couch segment, some students would stick around after chapel to listen to his solo, even though it was intended purely as exit music. I loved it to death, and appreciated his talent even more when he stretched out the entracte in one of our musicals – Guys N’ Dolls? – to stall for a longer-than-expected set change. As a solo musician playing a piano or an organ, he was very good at judging how baroque he could get before the audience (teenagers with somewhere better to be) would stop paying attention.

Did he practice or prepare to “improvise”? I’m sure he did. During choir practices he would often fiddle around with little chunks of the hymns as though feeling for a transition, and sure enough, we’d hear it slip into the Sunday improv. Some weeks he’d do just enough improvisation to get him “on the path” so he could play one of his own compositions, particularly his Rudolph theme-and-variations. Many weeks you’d hear him open with the same measures (especially on the pedals – he loved a good baroque pedal intro) as the week before and then sail off in a different direction, like he was trying them out before writing them down. Sure enough, when he recorded the Christmas CD with the school choir, most of his organ pieces were recognizable as mature versions of his earlier improvisations. For him, as an organist and an artist, improvisation was definitely central to his entire approach to the instrument.

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I also listen to Phish and the Grateful Dead. They’re great bands with a lot of talent, but I tend to stick to their studio recordings because I can not stand “noodling”, especially when the whole band does it at once. You can’t have four (or more!) people “solo” simultaneously unless the solo is scored and practiced in advance. It just doesn’t work. The transitions between songs (e.g. “China Cat Sunflower -> I Know You Rider”) are interesting to listen to, but I’ve also heard studio versions where the transition is scripted, and I prefer it, because then none of the instruments is out of step, or off-key, or trying to play an innovative counterpoint in 5/4 against 4/4. I’m sure it’s marvelous to listen to if you’re high – the cacophony and chaos probably stimulates all sorts of groovy visions and stuff – but as entertaining music, the noodling that most Jam Bands do simply fails. This is also why I generally can’t abide “drum circles” at camps and other hippie-type gatherings.

Now, when I say Phish and the Grateful Dead “fail” to entertain me with their improv, it’s not for lack of talent. Jerry Garcia can improvise in a bluegrass band very nicely, and Page McConnell has several moments on a few live Phish tracks where he is given a true solo and he makes some beautiful music. Jerry succeeds in bluegrass (but fails in the Dead) because the form of bluegrass encourages individual improvisation by each musician in turn. Page succeeds solo where Phish fails because he can solo but still produce a full sound. John Bonham’s drum solo in Moby Dick succeeds for the same reason. Joe Morello’s improvised (?) drum solo in Take Five, ditto – I could go on for pages. Note especially the very very brief solo on the bass guitar during Paul Simon’s “Call Me Al”, where the band drops out and the bass player noodles like crazy for eight beats. The horns a-a-a-a-lmost step on his finishing note, but he’s been given eight beats to do his thing and he knows it. It always catches my ear, because it’s clear that everyone in the band knows exactly where his solo starts and stops (put differently: there’s no room for “everyone listen for him to finish and come in quick” when you’ve got a horn section). Good improvisation needs a spotlight, not a dogpile.

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For my part, I prefer to listen to composed music, even when I know the composition has its roots in an improvisation. A good musician can play it as though it’s just occurred to him, but can retain the control and precision that makes a studio recording so tight. It’s the same with poetry: I’d prefer the sixth rewrite of a good poet over the stream-of-consciousness scribblings of a master. It’s not a work of art until you’ve put work and art into it. The exception is a single artist who has practiced and practiced until his fingers bleed, playing either alone or in a group that understands where the freeform sections are.

Canonball and Bird can solo until the cows come home as far as I’m concerned, but except when practiced by people who display the highest level of creative musicianship, I find the dreadful grate of extended musical improvisation to be a masturbatory exercise in self-indulgence.

Far better for most musicians to play their solos in the classical cadenza tradition (where the solo is usually written out beforehand, and is limited to a reasonable number of bars), to avoid creating a snoozefest. Quality over quantity, and all that. :slight_smile:

In terms of generating ideas for further exploration it’s extremely important. You can’t compose music if you don’t experiment and play around with it. The most revered composers (for instance Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven) were legendary improvisers.

Yes, like everyone else, I have certain tastes.

Yes. It takes me to the very edge of my technical and creative abilities. Now, whether it’s something people want to listen to, that’s another story. Improvs done on stage are always more limited in scope than they are in rehearsal, but I have been known to digress.

I guess I’m partial to early 70s stuff - Grateful Dead, Miles Davis Bitches Brew period, Allman Brothers, Frank Zappa, that sort of thing.

Musicians have their favorite licks, scales, rhythms, flavors, and whatnot that they like to work off of, so it’s a bit of both. The actual percentage of stuff made up on the spot varies a great deal from player to player and from night to night, I would imagine.

A bit of a strange question IMO. As Mack said, improvisation usually plays a major part in the process of composing a piece. And then there is the whole genre-issue. Jazz or Indian classical music depend a lot on on-the-spot improvisation, Western classical and most (not all, I know) electronic music seems to be relying a lot more on fixed compositions.

Difficult question. Tentatively as free, not previously planned musical & rhytmical movement within the defining limits of scale & beat structure in whatever genre you are playing. Some people do an excellent job transgressing og pushing those limits, and some seem to have none (Monk, Trane, Baby Dee, Squarepusher …)

Yes to both. I agree with Jurph and Flagon that it really depends on the skills of the musician playing.

Apart from the ones mentioned above - many, especially Indian classical musicians: Allauddin Khan, Nikhil Banerji, the Dagar brothers and many others.

Good improvisation from a great artist (the kind that makes you think “hell yeah” for every new note, gives you goosebumps, etc.) sometimes feels like a direct wire from the mind of the musician to your own. If the musician is a true genius, that feeling is the closest thing to a mystical experience you can find.

On the spot, by definition. As others have mentioned, most musicians probably use a lot of stuff they have been reheasing at home in their improvisations.

As with just about any worthwhile thread topic–and many which arguably aren’t worthwhile, some aspects of this topic have been discussed before.

Jazz Music/Musicians and Improvization is a thread I started a couple of years ago which is particularly focused on Jazz and improvization. It may not be useful or interesting to you, but it was both helpful and interesting to me.


Unrelated to the above. The music which I am most “involved” with at present, is hymns and Praise choruses, etc. at church. (I am a member of the congregation, not a lead singer. In the past,at other churches, I have been a choir member). I love singing old hymns, but often find church services where lots of hymns are sung to be kind of boring. I hate Praise Choruses which don’t seem to have tunes.

I love singing around a piano or a guitar or a campfire, with or without accompianment, with or without a hymnal or other form of sheet music, in harmony. I’m a soprano–I sing melody easily, and struggle with harmony. I admire people who can sing harmony easily–especialy the make it up as you go along type of harmony (also known as singing down a third, or the root of the chord or whatever). I like singing songs which are familiar enough that I can close my eyes and just dwell in the moment. I sometimes enjoy repeating a chorus, but I prefer singing songs with multiple verses, and singing all the verses–even if that means I need to look at the words. I hate endless repeats, or congregational singing that sounds like the Praise Band/ Worship Team/whoever listened to a CD where the musicians were incredibly into it, and spent some time kind of improvising and just repeating a line or two --perhaps at different tempos or volumes or pitches. It just doesn’t generally work with congregations I’ve known. The Praise Team gets it–and everyone else waits impatiently for the moment when they start paying attention to the congregation, and we sing one more chorus and then move on to the next song.

Probably not helpful, but oh, well.

Jurph you need to listen to some String Cheese Incident my friend. In my book they are the kings of improvisation. They don’t settle for the incessant noodling à la Jerry. There is a little of that from time to time but mostly they go through huge extended workouts of their pieces and the whole band moves forward in the journey in a large symbiotic mass.

How important is improvisation relative to composition?
That all depends on the composers composing style, Ive seen great works with no improvisation in the score and great ones with it. My own compositions to date have had significant amnpunts of improv in them.But i think that is a result of my musical influences that i was brought up with. Someone with different influnences would probably not feel the need to incorporate improvisation into their composition.

How do you define it?
Any spontanious non-predetermined reaction to a sound event or happening.

Do you enjoy listening to it? Participating in it?
I enjoy listening to it and I perform it free improvisation very very regularly. In fact i have a gig next Saturday which is totally improvised…Ive also performed in an ensemble that Improvised about half of each concert and a duo which was 100% Improvisation.

Do you have any favorite artists who excel at it?
NEXUS
Spanner
Barnyard Drama

Any favorite quotes or thoughts of your own?
We Improve by improvising.

I don’t think there is any other way to get to know someone as intimatly as improvising with them. IT tells you a lot about them, how they tick, how sensitive they are to certian things. How their listning skills are etc.

Can (should) you prepare to do improvisation or is it (by definition) done entirely on the spot?
Mabye mental preperation, but don’t go shedding licks to throw down at your next Improv, you will look like an asshole.

How important is improvisation relative to composition?
Do you mean, is the fixed part of music more or less important than the improvised part? If that’s the case, it depends on the type of music, as others have said. Classical western music has no use for it, while classical Indian music would be about as interesting as “Happy Birthday” without it

How do you define it?
It’s making music on the spot that fits with a given melody, chord progression, raga, whatever. It doesn’t have to be center stage. A nicely improvised bass line can really add interest to a song, even though it’s hardly registering on the listener’s consciousness.

Do you enjoy listening to it? Participating in it?
Listening: It depends if it’s good or not. Like any aspect of performance, there has to be some sort of groove, and there has to be tension and release. If improvisation is just wandering all over the place, it gets old real fast.

Participating: I’m trying to learn. Yeah, when it works it’s a lot more fun than just playing the notes you’re given. The trick is making it work. It’s not easy, at least not for me.

Do you have any favorite artists who excel at it?
Richard Thompson in rock/folk rock. At this point his studio albums have largely run out of ideas, but he does other projects that are as fresh as anything he’s ever done (most recently, the “100 Years of Popular Music” show and album, and the “Grizzly Man” soundtrack.

Stephane Grappelli in (quite old) jazz. His long-time partner Django Reinhardt got all the press, and he was definitely greatest guitarist who ever played with two fingers, but I always thought Grappelli was the more interesting improviser.

Any favorite quotes or thoughts of your own?
Well, this whole post is my own thoughts. You can quote me. :slight_smile:

Can (should) you prepare to do improvisation or is it (by definition) done entirely on the spot?
It’s probably a continuum, although a good part of it has to be on the spot. Otherwise, it’s composing/arranging. Basically, one can work directly off what’s written, or one can work off an intermediate step. I think the latter will generally result in more interesting music. Even the greatest improvisers have a finite set of musical ideas to work with. The thing is to expand the pallette, and I think that has to involve a lot of work off-line.