Lets discuss the consequences of slight alterations in the course of WW2

Great Debates
21

Hitler, rather than allowing himself to get caught up in “punishing” the Soviet Union, allows the General Staff to run the actual war.

By the end of August, the rubble of Moscow is being fought over by the remaining Soviet troops and the Nazi’s. With Moscow knocked out, Leningrad under seige and forces rapidly heading for the Volga river, supply and logistics for the entire front are screwed.

The Soviet Union collapses in chaos, and the Nazi’s leave in place a large pacifying force after signing “treaties” with the various fighting factions on their borders.

In reality, Hitler wasted so much logistic potential in constantly shifting goals that he lost the war.

But what if…

22

What if, as a young man, Hitler had developed a taste for conventional mustaches?

23

Reportedly, Churchill had been one day away from seeking a negotiated truce with Germany, when the Luftwaffe stopped attacking R.A.F airfields and shifted to anti-morale bombings of London, on Hitler’s orders.

24

Here’s my stab at it:

Hitler invades Soviet Union and immediately grants a limited independence to the Ukraine Latvia Estonia and Lithuania, all of which states immediately provide provisions for their German liberators, as well as troops and supplies, thus satisfying the nationalist elements of these occupied territories, and drastically limiting the effectiveness of the Communist partisan movement behind enemy lines. After which, Hitler conquers Russia, which is again subsequently broken up into its component parts to rule more effectively.

25

Can you point me towards something on this. I haven’t heard it before and would be interested in reading more to see what the evidence is.

26

Just to respond to this one, Britain had already begun atomic-weapons research (code name “Tube Alloys”) when the U.S. started the Manhattan Project. The two nations worked collaboratively on at least the theoretical aspects of fission weapons after Pearl Harbor. While the U.S. was able to devote far more resources to the project than Britain did, or would have in Quartz’s scenario, it’s not out of the picture for Britain to have developed the bomb first, or separately, in this scenario.

27

America decides to invest in developing it’s air and tank forces in the early 30’s, instead of once again cutting it’s military budget for everything except the Navy. By the time Germany starts to get aggressive in Europe, the US has developed a tank based on Christie’s designs (instead of making him to to Russia and sell it to them) and a series of updated fighter air frames. When WWII starts to brew up, America is more than happy to sell these updated designs (plus some of the tactical doctrine developed during our experimentation) to the Brits and Russians (we WOULD have sold them to the French as well, but being French they turn up their collective noses, since it Wasn’t Made In France).

I think that this small change alone would have put the US in a much better position to respond to the needs of our allies initially, and once we entered the war would have given us a credible force right from the get go, instead of having to learn the hard way.

Or, the US does not take an isolationist stance during the 30’s, and instead the politicians are able to convey to the people that we need to be more proactive (plus, that the meme about off-shoring and trade is a bunch of bullshit, and that ultimately it hurts the country to try and keep jobs and manufacturing here at the expense of international trade…something that seemingly we still haven’t learned).

On the Germans side, Hitler comes to power just as he does, but he suffers a partial stroke that causes him to shut the fuck up and let his generals plan and actually execute their strategy and tactics in Russia without him joggling their arm or changing their plans. I believe that Hitlers interference was the single greatest weapon against Germany that existed, and without it I think there was a very good chance that the Germans would have plowed under the Soviets in the initial assault. It was Hitler, changing the plan and further dispersing German resources, plus dragging his feet on the logistics and resupply problems (winter was coming, moron) that ultimately lost Germany the war.

Or, maybe that Hitler dies in prison and the Nazi party is discredited completely, and the republic survives and eventually becomes stronger. I’m not sure if this would have avoided war, but I think it would have changed what the war was (maybe limited to a war with France and possibly the UK).

Of course, the ultimate ‘what if’ is, if Germany had not invaded Russia at all, but allowed the secret treaty/pact to remain, and concentrated on wiping out the Brits once and for all. I think that war with Russia was inevitable, but if Germany had consolidated it’s power in western Europe, had integrated them into a new uber-German empire, and crushed or at least forced the Brits to comply, they would have had a massive amount of resources at their disposal…possibly much of the former British empire, certainly most if not all of the Brit possessions in the ME and North Africa.

-XT

28

Stalin has a heart attack and dies during the German push into Mother Russia. The leadership is left to deal with inevitable friction between the states within the Soviet Union at a time when Stalin’s totalitarian hand is probably the only way the Soviets could have defeated the invasion. Russia falls, England is doomed.

The world is split into three spheres of control. Germany controls all of Europe, the Urals, Russia. Japan holds most of China and south east Asia along with some parts of the Pacific. The United States has all of the Americas, Caribbean, most of the Pacific and is allied with Canada and Australia.

29

During the Battle of Leyte Gulf “Taffy 3” is on the far side of the rain squall. Kurita steams to the beachhead unopposed. The allied landings fail and the allies lose a lot of men and material. The defeat lengthens the war by a year. Halsey is court martialed, and is considered one of the worst commanders of all time.

30

That’s a good one.

31

Well, there was that pacifist who got run over in 1930. What if she’d survived?

32

Didn’t the guy with the pointy ears and the Canadian guy just watch her get run over? They could’a saved her.

33

Except that nations that did invest heavily in rearmament in the 30’s suffered from obsolescence due to the speed of technical advances, especially in airplanes. Would you want the United States in 1940 to have a huge fleet of Grumman F3F - Wikipedia biplanes?

34

Well, it would have made for a lot less squinting while playing WWII flight sims.

35

Seems unlikely. The Spitfire was a useful weapon but it played a lesser role in the Battle of Britain than it is normally granted. Hurricanes accounted for 2/3 of German aircraft shot down during the BoB. And the Spitfire about 1/4. Without the Spitfires and radar, the Brits will be hurt worse than they were but I think they still win the fight.

Even without the RAF though, the Germans had no chance of invading Britain. The best plan the Germans came up with was to invade with 10 infantry divisions stripped of their heavy weapons and transport. They would be facing 33 divisions, which while under equipped would have useful things like artillery, tanks and trucks. All items that the Germans would lack. In addition they would have to conduct this invasion into the teeth of the worlds greatest navy. I think it would take more than a slight alteration to make Seelöwe successful.

36

Without the Spitfires, there would be more Hurricanes, and nobody would notice. Without radar, Fighter Command would have been fucked. Proper like.

37

Developing can mean research rather than construction, and theres also infrastructure etc.

"The Air Corps began a rapid expansion in the spring of 1939 at the direction of President Franklin D. Roosevelt to provide an adequate air force for defense of the Western Hemisphere. An initial “25-group program”, developed in April 1939, called for 50,000 men. When war broke out in September 1939 the Air Corps still had only 800 first-line combat aircraft and 76 bases, including 21 major installations and depots.[12]

Even if they’d started getting ready a year or two earlier, the US position would have been very different. It doesnt need to go back to the start of the 30’s to change things very rapidly. The US had 12k aircraft by 1941, 33k in 1942, 64k by 1943.

Aircraft carriers would have been one obvious area that further construction would have paid off rather well for instance, even if the planes needed to be entirely replaced.

Otara

38

On the morning of April 28, 1945, Adolf Hitler learns that there is no liver dumplings left in the Führerbunker. In anguish and rage, he commits suicide while Eva Braun is in the lavatory. Heartbroken, her tears smudge Hitler’s will, and in the ensuing confusion, Hitler’s secretary Traudl Junge is named Chief of Staff of OKH. In a series of stunning and highly improbable counterattacks, the Soviets are driven back across the Oder and oh nevermind.

39

What if the Japanese forces focused their attacks on American shipping rather than US Naval units, and attacked the American supply lines to eastern Russia that ran just to the north of their islands?

Obviously this would have pissed Russia off, but if they would have started after Pearl Harbor, would this have made a difference at Stalingrad?

40

I think one minor change that would have had major changes in the war would be if the Americans and British didn’t break the codes Japan and Germany used throughout the war. Even the allies didn’t stress cryptology as much, the Japaneses destroyed the cryptology center at Pearl Harbor during the battle, or even if the Axis changed their codes more more completely or more often.

Many of the Allies successes came from broken codes, especially in the war on the pacific. How would Midway have been different if the US only knew the Japaneses were planning something from increased chatter, but not what? Would the US have moved their forces towards Alaska when Japan attacked before Midway? Would the US even have their carriers in place to make a counter attack?