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ahh, there’s the issue. See, all the discussion about it being victimless etc. assumes that the person who is a prostitute has made a reasoned decision out of free will. and I’m not convinced that a case can be made for that being the norm or even ‘most prevalent’. (note the use of ‘norm’). While I don’t claim that no one chooses this as an occupation, I do know that there’s plenty to demonstrate that many who are identified as being sex workers are there only because of a drug habit, or some other drastic measure ( as in this )
Probably true. Wants do not equal needs and most specifically do not equal rights. There are some people who ‘want’ a baby, does this mean that therefore there’s no reason to outlaw purchasing one? renting one for the day? Maybe you’ll agree those are ok, too, but again the existence of an individual’s wants does not equal the requirement that society provide a legal method of purchasing it.
this is one of those ‘if everything was different, then nothing would be the same’ kind of deals. Of course if everyone’s attitudes towards sex work changed, then things would be different. Not certain that simply legalizing it would do anything to achieve that. And before we go getting into sociological experimentation on this scale, I’d sure like to see some evidence that it would have the effect. You don’t want folks to use the ‘morality’ arguement. Unfortunately, the attitude issue is based oftimes in the morality argument. Yes, we’ve seen some changes in attitudes over the years (racism for example - while it still exists, strides have been made. However, the general ‘ewww’ factor is certainly still pretty prevalent).
I dunno if this counts as advertising, but when I was at Lake Tahoe about ten years ago, there was a section in the Yellow Pages for “brothels”. I think the ads were less graphic than your typical “escort” section, though.
I agree. Although I dislike prostitution I don’t see how keeping it illegal is helping anything. If someone wants to sell their body what concern is it of mine?
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I wouldn’t want to live in the neighborhood that was a red light district. I probably wouldn’t want to live next to that neighborhood either. Then you have city boards rezoning things from time to time. Times Square anyone?
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I read somewhere, and I don’t remember where, that the percentage of men who have paid for sex has gone down quite a bit since the early part of this century.
I don’t think I’ll ever consider prostitution to be a sort of relaxating therapy. I think it is rather disgusting to let complete strangers have sex with you. Who wants their son or daughter growing up to be a prostitute?
Making outlaws out of them doesn’t exactly improve their situation. Having to choose between prostitution and minimum wage drudgery can be unpleasant, but it isn’t quite as unpleasant as having no other [legal] option than minimum wage drudgery.
However, this POV is based upon the U.S. situation where prostitution is illegal. I do not believe that you can ascribe the same motivations to participants in a legal industry to those in an illegal industry. I’m sure there are studies of why women become prostitutes in Amsterdam, for example. If their reasons are drug use, etc., I’ll accempt it.
As for sexual slavery, legalization and regulation would likely go a long way to eliminating it. Hell, there are no where near as many moonshiners now as there were during Prohibition, right?
But society should not criminalize conduct without a basis for doing so. Almost all of the reasons presented for criminalization of prostitution (spread of disease, related criminal activity, etc.), would likely be ameliorized by legalization. The only one that wouldn’t is morality, which shouldn’t be legislated anyway.
And again, evidence exists. I’ll get on the web and look for studies of prositution in Amsterdam and Nevada, but having spent some time in Amsterdam, I’m pretty sure society didn’t collapse because of legalization.
There is one strong piece of evidence in favor of legalization, noted in Podkayne’s link - in Nevada, there was not one single incidence of HIV infection in 20,000 tests. On Saturday, I was listening to NPR, and there was an interview with a public health worker who lived at the Mustang Ranch for a while during a study. She was there to learn from the prostitutes there how to lessen HIV transmission, IOW how they were so successful in avoiding AIDS.
Oh, forgot. As to motivation, hell legalized prostitution can be very lucrative. In that NPR interview I mentioned, the researcher said that the Mustang Ranch prostitutes averaged six customers a night, set their own prices, and paid 50% to the house.
Assuming an average charge of $200/session (no, I don’t know what the prices are ;)), that’s $600/night for the prostitute, or $3,000/week, or $150,000/year. A lot of people do a lot of degrading (even if legal) things for a lot less money.
Miss the point??
my point was that the decision to become a prostitute was not (in those types of cases) made out of free will. it was a choice of last resort. Legalizing it would not make it a better option to some one who didn’t want to do it in the first place.
Sua in other threads on this subject, the vast majority of prostitutes in places like Amsterdam where it’s legal are not natives. Their backgrounds are sketchy, but given that the local gals generally don’t choose that as an occupation, wouldn’t you begin to believe there’s a bit more to it? International agencies are concerned at the levels of human trafficing around the globe. While some are being kidnapped/tricked into subsistence level occupations, there’s quite a number traded in for prostitution.
And, you forget, Sua the primary issue for me is that I have yet to be convinced that the typical sex worker has chosen that occupation out of free will. Which makes it a concern for legislation.
I think that the real issue is wether or not making it legal will help the prostitute’s situation. For example I have read that some transgendered people go into prostution because its a self esteem boost. If you legimitize it you will drastically improve the lives of the people involved and they will probably be able to get out of it much easier. Keeping it illegal only helps the poliece.
How’s that any different that someone stuck in a minimum-wage blue-collar job (or even some white-collar jobs) that they hate – but endure, because they have to support their habit/lifestyle/family/drastic measure/etc.? I doubt the people making $6.50/hour cleaning motel rooms are exactly thrilled with their positions, either.
rjung - thanks for making my point so much better than I could. What does motivation for taking a job have to do with whether the job should be legal?
If you take it one step further, I know a hell of a lot of lawyers and Wall Street traders with serious cocaine addictions. But for the enormous incomes they receive from their jobs, they wouldn’t be able to afford their addictions. Should these jobs be criminalized?
I am too cheap to pay for sex so I am a DIY but AFAIK prostitution is pretty much legal everywhere in Europe and they seem to have no major problems with it. It seems to me the US is alone in such a puritanical attitude. I can think of no valid reason to outlaw prostitution. Europeans seem also much more comfortable with nudity and sex than Americans.
And come on, a joke is a joke. If you can’t introduce a joke, no matter how serious the discussion, then you are taking things too seriously. I thought they were funny and even made a point in a certain way.
If I found the right woman and she told me she had been a prostitute before I would have absolutely no problem with that. Now if she told me she had to change carreer because she could not find enough clients as they all preferred the other girls… man that has to be depressing. I definitely prefer to think she was in demand. That I am getting for free what other guys were paying a lot for… Well I guess “free” is not the word…
A father once gave his young son this advice: “Remember this my son. The difference between prostitutes and decent women is that decent women are much more expensive”.
Somewhere, the Master has written a column about this, but I don’t feel like burdening the server about this at the moment (I’ve gotten the fastest connection I’ve had in days to this puppy, and have no intention on wasting it on a silly thing like research.)
I don’t know about the rest of the country, but here in Nashvegas (Nashville, TN), prostitution is almost defacto legal. There’s rarely a raid on any of the “massage parlors” or men’s spas. Occassionally, they’ll go after the street workers and johns (yes, they do bust the johns) who ply their trade in front of one of the local TV stations! (You can even watch them do it on an episode of Cops!), but for the most part, nothing happens.
Laurie Anderson on her “Strange Angels” tour talked about protesting in front of a Playboy Club. She said one of the Bunnies came up to her and asked what was going on. Laurie explained that they were there to protest the objectification of women, etc., etc. The Bunny looked at her and said, “I’ve got two kids to support. I make $600 a week at this job. This is the best job I’ve ever had!” And Laurie said, “Hmmm…” (Its a lot funnier to hear her tell it.)
Finally, there’s what William S. Burroughs said, “Beware of whores who say they don’t want money. What they mean is they want more money. Much more.”
(And FWIW, there’s some marriages that are less honest than prostitution! Anna Nicole Smith, anyone?)
In my own informal polling on this subject, I have found a sharp gender difference in how this is viewed. Of course, I always frame the question thusly:
Bigger skanky dishonest goldigging ho, ** Catherine Zeta Jones** or ** Anna Nicole Smith ** ?
Every single female I have asked about this has without hesitation answered “Catherine Zeta Jones, no question!” And every single man has said Anna. I find this very amusing.
In fact, I think I’m gonna post this as a GD and see what happens… [/hijack]
Put me down in favor (although at the going rate I think I’ll stick with DIY). I sympathize with the concern that a number of those who work as prostitutes feel degraded by the work. And I don’t think legalizing it would raise its status.
If I’ve got wring’s argument right, it’s that prostitution is bad because people are forced into it. How does legalizing it force anyone to work as a prostitute? Let’s say today I am without any particular skills, and the best legal job I can find today is something like housekeeping. Tomorrow prostitution is legalized, and now I can anticipate either continuing with my housekeeping or choosing to getting poked. But I can still keep my housekeeping job. I may even be embolded to ask for a raise, because I know there’s another opening. And how does keeping it illegal help them? It keeps them in some other lousy job and infringes on their right to work as they please.
And for those already in the life, the hole point of making it legal is to take it out of the hands of the pimps & organized crime, at least improving conditions for those in it. More money to those who make it & less abuse.
I suppose the idea is that if it’s easier to become a prostitute, then more people will. So what? A number of us seem to feel, if they want to, let 'em. I see it as a matter of individual choice. If someone wants to choose a line of work that I disapprove of (televangelist, etc., :rolleyes: ), they’re welcome to.
But others seem sure the gummint is better qualified to make choices for others.
I’m in favor, but like other people have said - HEAVILY regulated.
One thing that might help kill the “crack whore” image
is to make the prostitutes take drug tests in addition to
the STD tests. If you’re high - you can’t work for 30 days (stick) and get sent to rehab with a promise that if you stay clean you can work again (carrot).
Now, that’s pretty hypocritical given my stance on drugs (which I’m in favor of legalization and regulation of as well), but I’m afraid in this case it would be just too easy to abuse strung-out women. No drugs, no STDs. These chicks are doing this because they want to and no other reason. Let there be no doubt.
The other thing I’d like to see is required self-defense courses for prostitutes. Basically, I want them to be able to defend themselves if some guy tries to rape them. As a matter of fact, maybe include a requirement for concealed carry training, so they can carry a gun if they want to. You bet no John would stiff 'em then! (pardon the pun!) Would only take a few would-be rapists being shot and killed and the fuckers would stay faarrrr away from the hookers in the future.
Unionization is fine. Might also help them avoid being exploited by pimps.
Another thing that might make it slightly more socially acceptable is to not have streetwalking be legal. Keep it indoors at brothels and such. I think streetwalkers are the most assaulted kind of hooker, simply because of the places they ply their trade. Keeping it indoors, with bouncers and if necessary armed guards to throw the trash out might help a lot. Like strip clubs, where they can toss rowdy or inapproporiately behaving guys out anytime.
Obviously this is just my male fantasy, but I’d love it if only the prettiest and brightest girls became hookers. Oh, the fees would be outrageous I’m sure. But this is a valuable commodity they’re providing, and they deserve to be paid extremely well for it. I smiled when I read in the “$3000/night call girl” thread that some working girl had retired as millionaire at the ripe old age of 26. Yeah, baby, now that’s a dream job!
Oh yeah - equal opportunity exploitation here - men should have the right to legally be prostitutes too. Same conditions as above.
-Ben
