Well, it is entirely debatable as to whether or not Franken is a comedian. Apart from the fact that he’s never been funny, not even in his SNL days, he has intentionally positioned himself as a rabid left-wing commentator and analyst.
Au contraire, even if one is to accept your contention that O’Reilly and Coulter are liars (and one tends to doubt such accusations around here as the term is flung about so casually, and often wrongfully), it is entirely debatable that their entire careers have been based on it. O’Reilly, for example, has had a long and not so illustrious career as a newsman and tabloid show commentator. I don’t recall all sorts of accusations of lies during this time flooding the airwaves once he began to gain influence through his television program.
And besides, what sort of treatment would you suppose a right-wing comedian, say Dennis Miller, would get around here if he were to write a book entitled “Michael Moore Is A Big, Fat Idiot”? He would be excoriated viciously in any number of multi-page threads, so why does Franken get a pass (apparently) in your book?
Hell, let them all come! Imagine the fun we would have. We could draw lots on who gets to traumatize which newbie. Annie Coulter and I could accuse each other of treasonous activity, Shodan and Brutus could tear up Moore, Dennis Miller could be given a schooling in derision and sarcasm, oh the fun we would all have
I wrote a lengthy post here comparing Franken to Coulter. (Which, as I recall, no one responded to… sniff)
Yes, Franken is a humorist (regardless of how funny you think he is) whereas McCain and Will are not. But Al Franken also goes way out of his way to document his claims, back them up, be as honest as he possibly can, and admit mistakes when he makes them. I’m not sure who on the right wing I think is most comparable to him… PJ O’Rourke, perhaps, although the books of his I’ve read haven’t been actively partisan the same way Franken’s most recent book was.
What I find funny is the willful ignorance of those who complain about Al Franken “calling” someone a big fat idiot. There’s a reason he used that as a title.
Because Miller would be shamlessly copying Franken. If Miller were to find an original angle, I’d give it a try.
But maybe you should read Franken’s …big fat idiot.
And an excellent post it was, too, Max. :: pats Max reassuringly on the head :: I just looked at it myself. You obviously went to a lot of thought and trouble researching and composing it and I can understand your disappointment that no one commented on it. But I can tell you from my own POV that such posts can be overwhelming in the sense of inspiring someone to respond to them. The reader is impressed by them, and there are many points to consider and respond to, but to do proper and deserved justice to such a post would require much more in the way of thought and time and effort than many people want to expend at that particular time. In other words, it’s not that no one thinks it’s a good post, and it’s not that no one agrees with what you have to say. It’s just that to answer it would take too much time.
But kudos to you. It was indeed an excellent post.
Well, I can tell you from my own shameful example that he would be excoriated for making ad hominem attacks on someone for the way they look and not for what they say or stand for. I made such an ad hominem attack on Michael Moore and knew it was the wrong thing to do even as I was hitting the submit button. And sure enough, I was rightly condemned for having done so. (However, in subsequent threads where similar bashing was going on regarding Limbaugh or Bush or some such, I commented on the hypocrisy evident in condemning right-wing ad hominem attacks but relishing and luxuriating in them if the target happens to be right-wing. And as might be expected, I got nowhere.)
Well, you may be right about that. I was a pretty strong Limbaugh supporter when that book came out and frankly I was infuriated at Franken for it. However, I’ve since come to feel that Limbaugh is too effective at making the other side look bad, and in a way that practically makes you loathe those on the other side. I’ve since come to believe that that is partially responsible for the deep and hostile divisions that currently exist in this country. I also was very put off, even prior to Franken’s book, by Limbaugh’s Chelsea Clinton gag. That was the first chink in his armor as far as I was concerned, and while I never really liked him as much after that, I still resented Franken for the title of his book.
So anyway, perhaps now I could view it with enough objectivity to be amused by it. Maybe I’ll give it a try. Thanks.
Well, thanks (blushes).
So… are you going to respond to it? Do you agree with my assertion that Al Franken is far, far better than Anne Coulter?
Also, with respect to whether a right wing author would be able to get away with a similarly titled book, there have been two recent relevant works about Michael Moore. One is a book entitled Michael Moore is a Big Fat Stupid White Man.
Let’s see… you said
Please point me towards the vicious, excoriating multi-page threads about Michael Moore is a Big Fat Stupid White Man. Bluntly, I think that that book title is quite reasonable, if one wishes to write a book attacking Moore.
The other is a movie entitled Michael Moore Hates America. This, I believe, does deserve some rather excoriating pitting. Michael Moore may be wrong about everything. He may be pompous. He may not check his facts carefully. He may be making America a worse place via the beloved-by-conservative-commentators process of strengthening the resolve of our enemies. But I can’t imagine how a remotely objective and intelligent observer could view his works and not realize that he has a deep and abiding love of our country. And, let’s be honest, saying that someone hates America is way, way, WAY further over the line than saying they’re big, fat and idiotic. And yet, there are still no multi-page threads attacking said movie. (As far as I know).
(Granted, maybe your point would only apply if it were a right winger as prominent as Al Franken… but I’m honestly quite sick of claims along the lines of “oh, well we all know that the liberals would all do Y if X happened, even though it never has happened, so I’ll just proceed with my argument with X-makes-liberals-do-Y as a given”.)
Oh, and one last point. I’ve only read parts of Rush Limbaugh is a Big, Fat, Idiot, but Al Franken goes out of his way to explain that he deliberately chose his title to throw back at Rush Limbaugh the type of meaningful and relevant attacks Rush himself throws around. Now, whether or not this is a good excuse, or a good idea, is open for debate, but it’s not like he just randomly picked a prominent conservative and wrote a book whose title was a personal attack on that person’s physical appearance for no reason whatsoever.
Well, I really can’t as they both put me off (although for different reasons and in different ways), so I haven’t followed them closely enough to be able to compare them.
This is most amusing. When Franken’s book came out the media made sure everyone knew about it. It was not possible to not know about that book.
Now, I read the news every day, and watch a fair amount (almost daily) on television, and I haven’t heard diddly about either the book you mention or the movie. I wonder why that is? Media bias at work, perhaps? (And while we’re on the subject, I don’t recall any book by a prominent left-winger not being stocked by or prominently displayed by bookstores, but I remember well when Limbaugh’s books came out, you either couldn’t find them or you drew a scowl from the bookstore mavens you had to ask to ferret about in the inner recesses of their stores in order to locate one for you.)
Well, I’ll leave your assessment of my intelligence and objectivity up to you, but I think the only deep and abiding love Moore has is for being a rabble-rouser and trouble maker, and for the attention and approval it brings him from the left. IIRC, he was rabble-rousing and making both trouble and an ass out of himself even in high school.
And no, I don’t think he loves America! I think he’s embarrassed by it and ashamed of it and that he perceives himself as being both smarter and more evolved than almost all Americans. (I’m sure you’ve read the extraordinarily condescending and belittling way he’s spoken of this country and its people when he was speaking overseas.)
Well, maybe that’s because no one knows about it, like I said above. You have to be a Franken or a Moore to get your projects hyped the way theirs have been. Otherwise, it takes money, and even money won’t get you the wall-to-wall coverage lavished on the likes of those two.
Fair enough.
Ah, a pre-emptive explanation to lessen the flack he was sure would follow.
And I know he didn’t just pick any old prominent conservative. Limbaugh was (and perhaps still is) one of the most effective catalysts to motivate right-wing voters, and as such is the most reviled and hated by Franken and his cohorts on the left. As their most effective and pervasive enemy, he was the logical target of this attempt to ridicule and minimize him.
Well, I heartily recommend Lies, and the lying liars who tell them, which I thought was a quite entertaining book, and a devestating and well supported critique of the Bush administration. I’ll tell you what: if you read it cover to cover, I’ll read a similarly sized book of your recommendation.
I have to chuckle at this, as the reason it got so much publicity was not because of some great conspiracy, but because of the idiotic lawsuit against it brought by Fox. Damn that liberal conspiracy!!! By comparison, Michael Moore’s most recent book, Dude, Where’s My Country has hardly made headlines.
Hang on… now you’re implying that the famous liberal bias extends to BOOKSTORES? Well, again, all I can do is match you anecdotal evidence for anecdotal evidence… I frequent Tower Records and Books in Mountain View, California (a VERY liberal area), and they have a big shelf near the cash register which is always covered with political books, with plenty to choose from form both right and left. (And, to be honest, what exactly do you hope to add to the discussion by charging our nation’s hardworking booksellers with political bias? I mean, even if it were true, how would it be relevant to anything else? How could I respond?)
If you don’t mind me asking, what works of his have you read/watched?
Can you offer up some specific quotes?
(Standard disclaimer conerning “hating America”: it’s entirely possible to believe that the Iraq war is a terrible mistake, and be quite ashamed of many of the things America has done recently, and believe that if it Bush gets reelected, it will be because the majority of the country is tragically misled, and still love America.)
Yeah… for instance, a while back Mel Gibson tried to get some publicity for this Christian movie he’d made… but the god-hating atheistic liberal media establishment just plain refused to cover it, and it failed in obscurity.
(First of all, I have to ask you, what cohorts? Is Al Franken part of The Stonecutters, or something? Do he and Michael Moore meet from time to time with Molly Ivins to plan out their plan of assault? It might seem like a bit of a nitpick or a overreaction, but I think something that lowers the level of discourse, on the SDMB and in general, is to have a complaint about a specific member of a group, and extend it via amorphous language to apply to some ill defined larger subgroup. For instance, Shodan (note that I’m specifically referring to him by name, and I’m not saying this applies to SDMB conservatives in general) frequently has criticisms (some perfectly justified) of things he’s seen SDMB liberals say, but he addresses those criticisms to “the SDMB hive mind” or “the usual suspects” or what have you. I think that’s a terrible practice. But enough said.)
Anyhow, I think you’re oversimplifying. Franken would argue (I suspect) (and I happen to agree with this argument, but I’m not going to present it as indisputable fact) that Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fad Idiot is a fair title because Rush Limbaugh, specifically, employs unsubstantiated and irrelevant personal attacks during his program. If, on the other hand, the most well known right winger was someone, say, who had a frequent habit of making up insulting potty-humor nicknames for liberals, then it would be perfectly reasonable to write a book attacking that person whose title involved a potty-humor nickname.
Or to put it a different way, supopse George Will were 100 times more popular than he is. Do you think Al Franken would have written a book entitled “Geroge Will is a Big Fat Idiot”? Or alternatively, “George Will is a skinny ugly idiot”?
I said nothing about cutting any shorter section out of it. You made that up, and then attributed it me. In fact, I had made the initial mistake of him including more time (nine minutes) than he actually did, based on the fact that Moore himself couldn’t remember in his interview with Matt Lauer how much time he used. What I actually said was:
“He used a technique called ‘parallel editing’, which has been used by great directors from DW Griffith to Alfred Hitchock for the express purpose of making time seem to pass slower.” (Emphasis in the original)
If you have to lie about what people said in order to bolster your point, then your point is frail and you are unreliable. Also, it wasn’t a rant, and it wasn’t long —unless you’re used to reading children’s books. Here’s the post:
