Let's rewrite the Trojan War myths

Cafe Society
1

Please note that I did not write Let’s revise the Iliad. After all, Homer’s lesser epic* is not the story of the war between the Greeks & the Trojans; it is the story of a particular incident in the middle of that conflict. What I’d like to do is get Dopers’ thoughts on the entire cycle, which I judge to begin with the wedding of Thetis & Peleus and to end with the sack of Ilium.**

As I’m sure most of you know, the various myths about Trojan War contradict one another. This is only to be expected, since they are the products of many different traditions and many different authors, and said authors were unlikely to be concerned with honoring one another’s continuity. But even making that allowance, two aspects of the various tale have always bothered me. The lesser is the issue of Achilles’ invulnerability. It’s hard to reconcile the manner of his death with the events of the Iliad. If your flesh is proof against all mortal weapons, you don’t wait around for a new suit of armor when you’re en-fucking-raged over the death of your best friend; you go kick ass however you happen to be dressed. But I’ll leave that for somebody else to fanwank.†

Athena’s role in the conflict is the bit that’s always vexed me. I never believed that she’d give a good goddamn about the Apple of Discord. She’s the goddess of war, wisdom, and handicraft, after all, not of love, beauty, & ghetto fabulousity. On, I can buy that Hera would insist that an apple with “For the Fairest” on it be given to her, even with Aphrodite sitting ten feet away. But Athena? She’d say that she had better things to do than prance around naked in front of some mortal nitwit. “I’m the smart one,” she’d say. “Also, with the exception of the Master Rapist & the Queen of Misplaced Vengeance, I could kick any any five of your asses and take the apple if I wanted it. And that includes you, Ares.”

Sorry, I just don’t buy Athena’s role as written. It seems more likely to me that either (a) only Hera and Aphrodite were disputing over the Apple of Discord, or (b) Artemis or Hebe was the third goddess in that fight (though there’s problems with the former)††, or that, if Athena was involved in the dispute, it had nothing to do with vanity and everything to do with an intricate plot of hers to do away with Ilium.*†

But that’s just me. Anybody else have any thoughts–on this or any other part of the Trojan war story?

*That’s right. Lesser. The Odyssey is at least five times as interesting, not least because it has a protagonist who is not, you know, actually the villain.
** I suppose you could argue that the cycle really starts with the rape of Leda. But I just checked the list of things I care about and Leda’s nowhere on it.
† Achilles is also on the aforementioned list.
†† Incredibly, I do care about this one on account of loving Artemis, but I have decided to shut up about it for the moment.
*† I never said Athena was nice.

2

Of all the Greek and Roman myths, those related to the Trojan War are probably the least interesting to me, but since there aren’t threads on other ones, I’ll toss of a few quick thoughts.

Concerning Athena, I suspect modern readers think of her as some sort of man-woman-beast instead of the beautiful goddess she was thought to be. Also, our idea of wisdom is a bit different from your average Ancient Greek, and of course the gods were very human gods. I don’t have too much trouble believing that she would think she was the fairest and also being upset that someone refused to acknowledge it.

And Hebe wouldn’t have been let anywhere near the apple by any of the other goddesses.

3

I kind of like the notion of Artemis being the third instead of Athena. Artemis can be portrayed as very ambivalent about males and sexuality, simultaneously attracted and repelled. I think that the psychology of that myth could be made to work.

Of course, the psychology of the existing myth is in the choice that *Paris *makes–sex, home, or glory. My understanding of the Illiad–I have never read it all the way through–is that the gods are (often) portrayed more or less as elements of people’s psyches not as completely independent agents.

4

Any rewriting has to add a God of Prophylaxis (Greek word!), for obvious reasons.

5

Agreed, that’s part of the problem - it’s written not as a straightforward “this is what our gods and goddesses were doing!” myth but more as an allegory for how that could have all gotten started.

Maybe if one of the other goddesses or gods made a comment that insulted Athena’s pride, that could have drawn her into the contest. Something about how at least they knew it wasn’t for her, perhaps.

6

The Greek Pantheon was notoriously capricious, so I can see an off-hand comment by Aphrodite or Hera setting Athena’s teeth on edge and her desire to stick it to those two.

And Achilles vanity surely would preclude him from looking anything less than fabulous when he arrived to kick ass and take names (I’m lookin’ at YOU Hector!).

7

Now that you mention it, Athena’s role in the conflict does sound odd, but then, maybe she’s just in on Zeus’s plan – He and the other gods have seeded the human race with demigods, Ajax, Achilles, et al, they are there to inspire mortals to great heights, but they have to be taken out of the gene pool, befre the human race becomes too good, and a real threat to the Olyimpians.

That, or you could just paint her as Ares II – she’s just spoiling for a rumble. A logical, well-thought out, justly supported rumble, but she’s a brawler, all the same.

8

No way is Athena is not Ares II. Ares is Athena II, or rather Athena the lesser. :smiley: The ancient Greeks had a lot less respect for him than they did her. Quick–name a Greek myth in which Ares plays a leading role, and no, the founding of Rome doesn’t count. Pretty much the biggest thing he ever does is get trapped naked in bed with Aphrodite by Hephaestus (husband to the latter), and that’s just a way to get Hermes laid by the aforementioned Aphrodite anyway. Ares is the one member of the pantheon who actually got more respect from Xena and Hercules than in the mythology.

Anyway, Athena isn’t a brawler. She’s a general.

9

Well, it’s clear that Athena has to get into the fight somehow, and on the opposite side from Ares. It wouldn’t be much of a war if only one side had a war god, or if both of the war gods were on the same side. Obviously Ares is on the same side as Aphrodite (which has to be the Trojans, of course), because she’s got him wrapped around her little finger. And obviously the other goddesses vying for the apple have to be on the opposite side from Aphrodite. So maybe Athena is in it as a personal favor to Hera or whomever the other fair goddess is? Or possibly as a favor to her peeps in Athens, who in turn are of course in the fight out of friendship to Sparta?

And even if she weren’t offered as a choice, were I in Paris’ shoes, I would have still chosen Athena.

10

Did you mean Aphrodite in that last sentence? Not saying you should, just that your phrasing suggests Athena might be a typo.

Actually I think the most rational choice is to choose Hera. Both she and Aphrodite are likely to go batshit if offended (whereas Athena may or may not). Since you’re going to be making an enemy of at least one, best not to make it of the one most notable for her power and vengeance; and if you want one of them as a patron, Hera is a better choice than Athena. Paris was clearly thinking with his dick.

Part of the reason this is of interest to me is a parallel between Athena and Achilles. You may recall that, in the most common version of the tale, Zeus begot Athena upon his first wife, Metis, but was warned by either Rhea or Gaea that a son borne by Metis would be mightier than him and eventually overthrow him just as he overthrow Cronus, and Cronus Uranus; whereupon Zeus swallowed Metis (as Cronus swallowed his children by Rhea) to prevent that from happening; and in time he felt the unborn Athena in his head, fighting to emerge, and eventually Athena sprung forth from his forehead, adult and armed. A similar myth attends the origin of Achilles: Zeus desired his mother, Thetis, but was informed by Prometheus that any child Thetis bore would be greater than his father, whereupon Zeus decreed that Thetis might only marry a mortal. (And yes, I realize that the Athena myth represents a tension between cults and an integration of an earlier-goddess figure into Zeus’ pantheon in a subordinate position).

Now, all of that is story-external. Story-internal, I wonder this: what if Athena resented what happened to her mother? What if she had ambitions of her own to rule? What if Zeus misinterpreted the prophecy about Metis’ child because of his own sexism: that is, the great mother made no qualification about gender in her prophecy, and he simply assumed it? Mightn’t Troy be a part of an intricate plan to depose him somehow, or at least to expand her own power base?

11

No, given any choice of goddesses, I’ll always choose her of the bright eyes. Aphrodite is just an eye-candy bimbo. Clearly, Paris had different priorities than I.

12

Okay. I agree, by the way, but I thought I might be misreading it.

Of course, if you mean actually boinking the goddess rather than admittign which is more appealing, then you should choose Aphrodite. Boinking’s her gig, and she’s been known to do mortals. Athena’s not gonna do anybody.

13

In *Iliad * Zeus says something like “Were all the Gods in heaven to pull upon a rope, and I, at the other end on Earth, were to pull with all my might, you would all come tumbling down.” Hera doesn’t disagree with him.

I also don’t think Achilles was the villain. At least not by Greek standards. Hector wasn’t a peach himself.
Odesio

14

Even many of the Greeks who were writing about the Trojan War probably didn’t believe there were literal gods out to screw over everyone over some fruit. Paris’ choice between Aprodite, Athena, and Hera wasn’t to judge their beauty but to judge the beauty of what they represented.

So of course Athena had to be in that triad – her purview of wisdom, war, civilization, etc. was among that most revered by the Greeks! Ridiculous to consider that she would not be considered among the most beautiful.

That the three fell to quarreling after Paris’ judgment is surely a commentary on how often beauty and wisdom and matrimony just don’t go together too well in life…

If I were to re-write the Trojan War myths, I’d definitely recast Troy as the misfortunate victims of circumstance (and Paris’ stupidity, of course). They’ve really only got Hector as their star player, while the Hellenes get a laundry list of heroes longer than the Argonauts’ team roster. And Hector is no Achilles, Ajax, or Odysseus. Troy needs some star-power.

What Troy does have, in abundance, is victims. Seriously, between Priam, Hecuba, Cassandra, and that idiot Laocoön, you’d think the Trojan flag is a big “kick me” banner draped on their backsides.

Also, I’d definitely have to make Cassandra a goth. Sure, no one believes her when she perfectly tells the future – but she knows it’s the real future! Yet she mopes around in Troy, probably writing bad poetry, instead of leaving the damn city when she knows damn well what she’s got to look forward to is being raped and then getting Clytemnestra’s axe because of it.

Also, Skald, you mean that Achilles is also not on the aforementioned list that also lacks Leda.

And how do you feel about Iphigenia?

15

Arachne would be only too happy to tell you that Athena had a huge ego and NO patience or mercy on those who didn’t give her all the honor and deference she though was due her.

16

I’m not sure what your point here is. In my OP I observed (jokingly) that Athena would know her power was nowhere near her father’s.

I meant by contemporary standards. Or at least mine. :smiley:

17

Quoth Skald:

Then as now, admirers of Athena have an tendency to not get laid. Unfortunate, but there it is.

Quoth Lightray:

Most modern folks just don’t get the notion of prophecy. The Greek prophecies weren’t this wishy-washy “The future has many cloudy possibilities” sort of thing-- They were going to happen, it was just a question of how. And those who attempted to fight their prophecies generally ended up getting them fulfilled in the worst possible way. Cassandra was sensible enough to know that, and so didn’t try to fight hers.

18

Re: Ares and Athena, y’all should read this excerptfrom Neal Stephenson’s Cryptonomicon.

19

Athena’s inclusion among the three can be easily justified from an in-story perspective. After all, Athena knows for sure that she’s 10 times better than that skank Aphrodite, and that castrating shrew Hera. All it takes is one comment from someone and her pride gets involved. Athena is not only the best of the gods, she knows she’s the best, and she’s emotionally invested in being the best. She’s the straight-A student and star athlete that thinks it’s perfectly logical that she should be homecoming queen as well.