Let's talk about AWOL Soldiers

Great Debates
41

Identical on paper, sure. The hours of instruction and the Terminal Learning Objectives are the same. But it’s a different training environment and a different BASIC.
I definitely see a difference between the BCTB training and the ITB training. Plus over at the OSUT, they’ll fill entire platoons (sometimes compaines) of privates with Ranger contracts. These soldiers need to be prepared for Airborne School and RIP when they leave OSUT. So they’re experience is definitely much different, even though it’s technically the same Basic. When there is one Ranger Platoon in the company, you can even notice the difference between that platoon’s training and OPTEMPO from that of the rest of the company.
The point is just that unlike the univeral Boot Camp of the Corps, Army Basic varies greatly.

Benning.

42

Hee hee… I’ll bet he did! My brother’s Ranger tab still worries a couple of guys in his current Guard Reserve unit…

:wink:

43

Pygmy Rugger

Not to get into GD or the Pit, but I will clarify my position. I don’t think that a person that voulenteers for service should have an easy time getting out. How the person gets out is up to the officers appointed above him or her. I do feel that a person who discovers that the service is not right for them may need a way out. Again, it is up to the commissioned officers to tease out the reasons that the person went AWOL and if this person is worth retaining. I also feel that insulting any person who takes the Oath of Office is uncalled for. There may be others on this board who are undecided about the military and by referring to those who cannot cut it as “pussy” may affect their decision to defend their country (in my opinion an honorable proffession).

Sgt Schwartz

44

Hey Bear_Nenno where at in Benning? I did BASIC there in '95. I was in C Company 1/19th. Worse and best 13 weeks of my life.

From your description BASIC has really changed a lot since even '95. We weren’t allowed to do any of that stuff you mentioned in your previous post. Every single one of our minutes were accounted for. The only free time we had the entire time I was in training was on Sunday and that is if you went to service. If not you stayed in the barracks and cleaned.

45

(bolding mine)

I don’t want to hijack this thread, but does that mean you think some who’s drafted should have an easy time getting out? :confused:

46

If someone does not have what it takes to be a soldier, it should be tough for him to get out?

47

Now I am at 2/47. Its a regular 9 Week Basic Training here. I also did my initial training here at Benning, but over at 1-50.

1-50 and 1-19 are both Infantry OSUT. Like I said earlier, its a whole different animal over there. I am not sure how lax they are over there now during ‘free time’, but I’m sure its not like this side of the Hill. In 2002, it was still as you described 1995. Kinda what I meant about being technically the same instruction, but a different environment and a completely different experience.

As far as the whole Volunteer Hijack:
People who never join the Army may or may not be a pussy. A person is not a pussy in my mind just because he never joined the Army. Maybe he has better oppurtunities or different desires. Just because a person doesn’t serve, doesn’t mean he couldn’t serve. People choose to never serve for a million reasons, the very least of which is being a pussy.
But if a person does volunteer and then can’t even complete BASIC training, it’s pretty clear to me he’s a pussy.
There is the .1% chance a person could have some kind of severe family emergency, but there are other options than AWOL/Desertion so I find that explanation unlikely.

48

This labeling people “pussy” is for insecure wusses who cannot bear the thought that not everybody thinks the military is the best career choice in life. I know that 2 weeks into basic I thought to myself “I am listening to a barely literate person explain to me how to wash my nuts. These juvenile mind games are a complete waste of my life.” I went the distance nonetheless, and I was right, it was an utter and complete waste of years of my life. In fact I consider myself a bit weak for not looking the drill sergeant in the eye and saying “We’re all done here, I’m going to go try something else, have a nice life.”

Mind you, that’s just my story. If you made it your life and succeeded, then wonderful for you. I hope you’re confident enough in that place that you don’t have to look down smugly on people who can’t or won’t make the same choice.

49

Thank you for your service, Brain Wreck, and for your understanding.

Sgt Schwartz

50

I dont. And I made that clear in my post.

BTW, I’m sure that in every office job, the President or Manager or Boss is always so much smarter than his new employees and never yells at them or criticizes them. :rolleyes: Noone in the civilian world ever has a boss dumber than themself I guess…
I dont see how a person who can’t tolerate that for a short period of time can succeed at all in life. In fact, if someone tried to work at Benningan’s but got deep in the weeds one Saturday Night on his first week and then walked out in the middle of his shift because he just couldn’t handle the stress. I would call him a pussy too!!
It has absolutely nothing to do with the military. If you can’t handle a little pressure or a little stress, you’re a goddam baby with no manner of intestinal fortitude whatsoever. There’s tons of examples of this all over this message board and everyone wants to baby them and say “ohhh it’s okay, that job isn’t for everyone. You’ll find something you’re good at and something you like”.
Sorry, not everyone can work as a professional finger painter. There is stress in life.

I could understand if a person chooses to not join the military. And even why a person would choose to not re-enlist. Or even for a person who was expecting something better but just didn’t like it or got fucked over so he hated it and complained the whole time and decided to get out after his term. I have no lack of respect for these people.

But if you’re going to choose to enlist–knowing that your drill sergeants are not necessarily geniuses, and maybe you will have some superiors who are all jacked up–and use this as a reason to become a deserter, than you’re idiot.
And if you just can’t handle the pressure and become a deserter, you’re a pussy.

I disagree. So now I’m a wuss? You’re going to have to provide more to back that up than “you called a quitter who can’t handle a little pressure a “Pussy”, so you must be an insecure wuss. I learned that on Oprah”.

Back to the OP:
Did you ever find out if your buddy was fucking with you? I still think he was just on leave.

Here is a little more info on AWOL.
When a private goes AWOL, he has 30 days before he is a deserter. After that, it doesn’t matter if he comes back in 40 days or 440. He’s going to pay the penalty of being a Deserter.
If he comes back within that 30 days, his Company Commander has the option and discretion to handle him in a variety of ways. He can Article 15 him, take rank, take pay, give him extra duty, confinement, etc.
After all that, he can recycle him to start him at the begining of BASIC, or he can submit paperwork for a Chapter 10 Discharge, which is Dishonorable.

The only thing I can think of that would be the “Entry Level Seperation” that keeps getting mentioned is for things like prior existing medical conditions, or if someone has questionable tatoos that they are unwilling to remove.
There is also some type (Chapter 13, I think) for people who just can’t adapt. I think Chronic Bed Wetters fall under this category too. I believe that none of these are dishonorable discharges (unless the medical condition was intentionally hidden). But none of these are available to Diserters.
Possibly–I guess-- the “failure to adapt” reason for discharge would be available to a person who went AWOL and came back in a couple days, but that would no doubt come after a couple months of hell and punishment. And would still have to come from a generous chain of command.

51

Since the OP has been long answered, but an interesting debate has arisen, let’s move this.

samclem

52

Debate:

A person who enlists but does not go through with his intention, (ie freaks out and runs away from BASIC) is not “Brave or Coragious simply because he enlisted at all”

A person who enlists and serves in the military is not necessarily braver or more cowardly than a person who does not. I believe that courage, bravery, ability to handle stress, and generally ‘not being a pussy’ is independant and completely unrelated to the act of enlisting in the military.

If someone runs away from something he chose to do, he is a pussy. Whether that thing was basket weaving, waiting tables, cutting hair, or serving in the Army.
Not likely the task at hand is one thing. Running away and hiding from it is quite another. The military happens to be unique in that you cannot simply put in your 2 week notice. This just means you need to think long and hard about signing up and dont take it lightly.
If you find that service was completely different than you expected, than you’re an idiot for not looking into it enough. If you then use that as a reason to run away (instead of pleading to get out and going through legal channels) then you are a pussy.

SGT Swartz, I realize you spend the majority of your work day working with soldiers who desparately want out of the Army and/or can’t take the stress of deployment, etc. And it is your job to talk to them sensibly and let them express their feelings and help them work through their issues and let them know their feelings are natural, etc.
I’m glad the Army has people like you to help those who have the balls to stick to it so they can cope. I have respect for them and for you.
But these people you see at work did not run away. They are not deserters. They are not pussies.

The fuckers who can’t handle the stress of Basic Training, and instead of seeing the Chaplain or the Mental Health guy, they run away… those guys are pussies. Signing a paper in some airconditioned building and swearing some oath at MEPS does not make a person a hero.

53

“Not likely the task at hand” should be “Not liking the task at hand…”

54

Same at MCRD San Diego, 20 years ago (not that we would need to be shown, as the main gate is easily in view as is the airport about 100 yards away…)

I really don’t have anything to add that has not been said, but it is silly to “hide.” Turn yourself in, and face the consequences (they really aren’t as bad as one thinks they are).

55

[QUOTE=Bear_Nenno
Tomorrow we will have about 6000 Basic Training Privates returning from their two week Christmas Vacation. Yeah, that’s right, I said TWO WEEK vacation. At BASIC Training…
Fuck that. BASIC is not the time to decide whether you want to be a soldier. One should not have the attitude of “well, I’ll go try it and see if I like it. If not, I can just leave when I feel like it”
That’s hardly volunteering. He should either make the committment or not sign up. If he hates it, he needs to suck it up and finish what he started. He can get out after the enlistment is up.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. After the 2 week "vacation’ the army give recruits, DURING BASIC TRAINING, nobody in the Army should be called a “pussy.” :rolleyes:

They are lucky they did not enlist in the USMC 20 years ago, or today for that matter.

56

Right. A 17-year-old child is old enough to make this decision in the first place. A 17-year-old child has the nerve to say “screw this, I’m done”, go against all the “you can’t quit, you’re government property” cult mentality, and leave. :rolleyes:

I still think this is just a thin veil over a mound of “It makes me feel tough to think of others as weak”, which in itself is weak. There is no shame in signing up for the military and thinking “you know what, screw this”. There is no shame in feeling like the military is a cult where nobody will let you out voluntarily.

When I was in jump school at Benning, they’d actually try to drive people to drop out. They didn’t want anybody wearing the wings who didn’t really have their heart in it. I submit that an Army uniform should be the same thing… the front door should always be open and the cadre should be encouraging you to use it. Yet somehow they lie to you, threaten you with desertion, tell you these myths about being “government property” to keep you in… sounds kinda like a desperate cult to me. :dubious:

57

Minor aside: I wonder when that particular myth is finally going to die.

58

I dont understand what you’re saying here.

59

A 17 year old is a child? I think you’re reaching hard here. I love how you neglect to acknowledge that a 17 year olds need parental consent to enlist (no doubt to help them think through the huge decision. And I don’t know why you mention 17 year olds. What very small percent of enlistees is that freakin young?

And I still think your “Hug First” attitude is just a thin veil over a pile of shit.

No shame in thinking a lot of things. But there is shame in running away from your problems.

So where do you draw the line? I’m curious? If a soldier says “screw this” at Basic and leaves it’s okay with you? What if he says, “screw this” and leaves in the middle of a fire fight? Or while guarding the motorpool?

Do you have employees of your own? If you assigned one a spcific task, and then he just felt the stress was too much, so he left in the middle of it and quit the job, you would just think to yourself “awwwww… I really worked him too hard. I’m sure he is mentally tough and morally straight. He didn’t want to be a quitter. He was just tricked into a situation where he found himself uncomfortable in his environment, so he ran out of the office and left everyone hanging. I can understand where he’s coming from.”
Whatever.

I guess there’s no shame in being an idiot either.

[quote]
When I was in jump school at Benning, they’d actually try to drive people to drop out. They didn’t want anybody wearing the wings who didn’t really have their heart in it. I submit that an Army uniform should be the same thing… the front door should always be open and the cadre should be encouraging you to use it.

[quote]
And I submit that it’s an entirely different argument. One does not sign a contract saying he will serve two years at Airborne School. He signs a contract saying he’ll do a certain amount of years in the Military though.
Withdrawing from Airborne School, Ranger School, or Special Forces, is not the same thing as quitting the Army. And certainly a very different thing than sneaking away and running off.

[quoteYet somehow they lie to you, threaten you with desertion, tell you these myths about being “government property” to keep you in… sounds kinda like a desperate cult to me. :dubious:[/QUOTE]
Sounds like you have other issues or some personal grudge you’re holding.

60

And I submit that it’s an entirely different argument. One does not sign a contract saying he will serve two years at Airborne School. But he does sign a contract saying he’ll do a certain amount of years in the Military.
Withdrawing from Airborne School, Ranger School, or Special Forces, is not the same thing as quitting the Army. And certainly a very different thing than sneaking away and running off.

Sounds like you have other issues or some personal grudge you’re holding.