I’m just gonna throw out some random questions and see what sticks. In no particular order…
Do you think of the gods of Mount Olympus by their Greek names, or by the Roman ones?
1a) For the persons who prefer the Greek names: when you think of the demigod who performed the Twelve Labours as Hercules or Herakles?
What story in this mythic cycle speaks most to you, and why?
Do you see any similarities between Christ and Herakles?
3a) How about Christ and Dionysus?
3b) If you answered yes to either of the above, do you think the similarities betray a common origin to the stories, a common theme in religious thought, or simple coincidence?
1)Greek
1a)Hercules, but I think that’s just because while pop culture does a pretty good job of using the greek in greek settings, they for some reason prefer Hercules. c.f. the Disney movie where he’s the son of Zeus but still named Hercules.
2)Never really thought about this question. I imagine the story of Deianeira giving him the the poisoned robe provokes the most feeling. Plus there’s the whole ascending to Olympus so hey, he totally ended up winning here.
3)I’m sure many a dissertation has been written on the topic but I never thought about it.
3a)See 3.
3b)I would suspect a common theme in humanity’s concept of religion before a common origin.
1) Do you think of the gods of Mount Olympus by their Greek names, or by the Roman ones?
Greek, because that’s how I first learned them waaaaay back in elementary school.
1a) For the persons who prefer the Greek names: when you think of the demigod who performed the Twelve Labours as Hercules or Herakles?
Hercules, because that’s how he’s usually called by modern English speakers.
2) What story in this mythic cycle speaks most to you, and why?
I’m not sure how I’d answer this anyway, but I’m also not sure whether this question is asking about the Hercules stories in particular or all of Greco-Roman mythology.
3) Do you see any similarities between Christ and Herakles?
I’ve never noticed any significant ones, and none are occurring to me now. I don’t know that I remember all the details of the story of Hercules very well, though.
3a) How about Christ and Dionysus?
Sure, some. Both had mortal mothers, both are associated with rebirth/resurrection and with wine. There are of course also some very large differences between the two.
3b) If you answered yes to either of the above, do you think the similarities betray a common origin to the stories, a common theme in religious thought, or simple coincidence?
I’d say it’s mostly due to common themes in religion, although it’s certainly possible that the authors of the New Testament were influenced by Greco-Roman mythology.
Oh, any story of Greek mythology would count, whether as magical as the story of Perseus, or as mundane as Hero & Leander (which, admittedly, is less myth than folk-tale, but it’s commonly found in compilations of Greek myths, so I’m gonna count it anyway).
Greek
a)Hercules
2)Philomela.
A tongueless rape survivor who uses whatever means she has to tell her story and get a twisted type of justice, before being turned into a bird to escape with her beloved sister, forever after singing beautifully…
It resonates with me because it is one of the few stories in myth where a woman is resourceful and strong, despite horrible things happening to her.
I’m obviously not really down with the whole killing an innocent child bit, but I get that in context it was the only way Procne had to punish her husband for her sister’s horrific rape and torture.
3 Sure, plenty of similarities.
a)ditto.
b) I think people think “hey, let’s add THAT” a lot.
See:
Jesus/Mithras
Gilgamesh/Noah
Creole religions/Catholicism etc.
The one when I hunter leaves his party to take a leak by the river and sees Artemis with her nymphs, just about to go into the river to take a bath. While the nymphs panic, Artemis calmly splash water at him and says: “Now go to your friends and tell them you’ve seen Artemis naked.” That’s exactly what he intends to do. He runs back to them shouting “I’ve seen Artemis naked! I’ve seen Artemis naked!” But from his mouth there is no words coming out, only strange animal sounds. When he arrives the dogs barks and the hunters pick up bows and spears to kill him. He flees with the dogs after him. He stops at a pond and happens to see himself in the water. He is a deer. The dogs are coming with the hunters behind them. He flees once again, but the dogs are catching up on him, drags him to the ground and the hunters kill him.
It’s just one of them cool stories about the integrity of one cool godess.
No.
Yes, they are both child gods and wine gods.
Both are offsprings from the same archetypal image, to my mind, but it would take some time (I’m not having at the moment) to elaborate on this.
Thanks, I always forgets his name. English is not my first language, perhaps “integrity” was an ill chosen word. What I mean is “proud and cool and nobody fucks with the, well, Artemis attitude” she’s displaying.
You write English very well for a non-native speaker, so you should feel proud of your accomplishment. At any rate, I think the word you want is something like haughtiness or majesty, or perhaps just pride. (But not arrogance, though Artemis is of course nowhere near the god her sister Athena is.)
Mostly Greek, but a few Roman names have sneaked into my noggin’: Zeus, Hera, Athena, Apollo, Aphrodite, MARS, Hephestus, Hermes, Hades, Hecate, SATURN, DIANA, Demeter, Persephone, Dionysus and Hestia make up my pantheon. (With a shout out to good old Priapus, of course. )
If I’m in a magickal, neopagan religiousish setting, then I think of Herakles. If I’m in a muggle setting, I think of him as Hercules.
The Demeter/Persephone myth. It’s the myth that I most resonate with, that has had meaning, often very different meanings, but always very deep and personal Truth meanings, at many different stages of my life. As a young girl, I was Persephone, first yearning to be “swept away” by a dashing, dangerous stranger, then completely overwhelmed and out of my element when it actually happened. For many years, I was Persephone in the Underworld, trying to resist overwhelming natural forces and finding my power in Dark times…Some years I’m Demeter, some years I’m Hecate…once I was even Hades. …always different, but always some message.
Not a lot, honestly.
Yes, but I think they’re pretty superficial, ribbons and trim kinds of similarities. I don’t think they share a lot of the same spiritual Truths; in thematic ways, Dionysus has more in common with Lucifer, I think. Carpe diem, find your personal power and live in the moment and where’s *my *nymph and all…
…on the other hand, Jesus *did *talk a lot about throwing parties at his Dad’s house…
the Prometheus/Pandora story - important moral: gods are bitches, don’t fuck with them.
Not really
3a) Yes
3b) A common origin - in the Greek originals. The Mysteries clearly influenced and predate Christianity - you’d have to be completely ignorant of the Hellenic influence on the cultureof that time and place, or hopelessly naive to believe Judaism and early Christianity were incorruptible by outside influence.
Greek, because I studied both Latin and Greek at school. But I’m aware that the names predate Latin and Greek (e.g. Zeus = Jupiter = Zeus Pater = Dipiti)
Both.
I mainly enjoy them as stories. There are some morality plays.
Greek.
1a) Usually Hercules, because I see it written this way most often. Herakles is cooler.
Many of the stories speak to me, and favorites have changed over the decades. When I was a girl who rebelled against restrictions on girl’s activities, I loved the story of Atalanta, but as I’ve gotten older and times have changed, it doesn’t mean much to me anymore. I guess it’s a done story for me. Persephone’s abduction into the Underworld has meant a lot over the years, as has the story of Orpheus. But the one that has meant the most over my lifetime has been the story of Eros and Psyche. However, the version of it that I loved the most is the Norwegian fairy tale “East of the Sun, West of the Moon.” I have many reasons for loving it, but will summarize by saying it’s not a “done” story for me yet. I’m still have accomplished Psyche’s tasks.
No.
3a) Moreso than with Herakles. I suppose because the Lutheran church services I went to as a child were the opposite of ecstatic and bacchanalian, it’s harder for me to see the parallels…even though we did have real wine for communion. I need to think about this some more.
3b) Common themes in religious thought. Spiritual experience shaped by common forms. And, yes, good stories are also co-opted and recycled and reused. But only if they fit some essence of the experience. Other good stories that don’t fit get dropped or used elsewhere.
1.) Greek, especially as you specify “Mt. Olympus”, which is in Greece.
There are actually differences between the Greek and Roman gods, but people conflate them so completely, this is easy to lose sight of, and many people never really learn about them. Bulfinch, in his Mythology, invariably used Roman names. But I gpt a big dose of the Greek forms in Junior high, when we read Fitzgerald’s translation of the Odyssey, and he made a point of transliterating the Greek forms (i.e-- Kirke instead of Circe, Telemakhos instead of Telemachus)
1a.) I was brung up on sources that used Hercules, especially the films of the late fifties/early sixties, so it’s the form I think of first. But, with my Greek-spelling preference, I use Herakles about as much.
2.) Perseus, of course, for reasons that will be clear to many.
3.) You can draw parallels in each case, but I don’t find them overwhelming or indicative of a common origin.
My understanding is that the Romans saw their gods as having multiple aspects that they could present on different occasions or to different people. So they would have seen Zeus as the aspect that Jupiter presented to the Greeks. Meanwhile Jupiter presented himself as Dagda to the Celts, Horus to the Egyptians, and Yahweh to the Jews. And of course, Jupiter was the aspect he presented to the Romans.
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