Let's talk about guns and Americans

The BBQ Pit
1

Hi!

If you’re American and into guns: move along, nothing to see here.

I put this in the pit because I always like the tone of discussion here.

The board is all but completely filled with theads about dead kids, swimming pools, cars, alcohol and other completely unrelated stuff.
The only thing these subjects have in common is that 'mericans bring them up in gun debates.
What’s up with all the bullshit that gets thrown around in these debates?

Why do such a huge portion of Americans think someone wants to ‘take their guns away’? Even in countries with the most draconian gun control people still hunt and shoot for sport.

Do they (if you are a ‘gun loving’ 'Mercian; by now you should realize this is not a thread for you, it’s about you) really believe their society is served by fighting any sort of gun control?

Why doesn’t the other, sane, part just go of and put some decent laws in place? I really think you are the majority.

If you insist on debating with the wannabe John Wayne part of the populous why do you fall every time for the same tired tricks? By now you should be able to identify and shoot down all the bullshit arguments.

2

I’d blame the NRA shill rethoric and, in larger part, the weapon industry itself. Guns in the US are possibly a dying market - sales are shrinking on the whole. Certainly with 70% of Americans owning at least one gun, it’s a well saturated market. And guns don’t really decay or become obsolete. So what’s a fish to do when it’s pulled out of the water, but desperately thrash around ?

I certainly see parallels with the copyright/music/DVD industry, the questioning of which brings out just as much ingrained, indoctrinated knee-jerk response any time it is brought up, even from a public that has no stake whatsoever in the issue (and quite possibly *positive *stakes for the issue being kicked down the road). Or the anti-gay crowd, for that matter. Same thing. In all them cases, financial support is on the way out, every statistical trend says so. The people whose livelihood depends on said support are understandably worried, don’t know what the fuck to do, and know they will DIE if they don’t do anything.
So the only thing they *can *do is a Hail Mary pass, try and convince the public that their being on the way out is going to bring about the Apocalypse. And it works. So far.

Only 5 days left gun takers, mp3 downloaders and cock marriers ! Better make it snappy.

As to why I, a Frenchman entirely un-interested and un-involved in gun rights or even the friggin’ news, still insist on occasionally taking part in the same bullshit, tired arguments… because people are WRONG. On the INTERNET. :slight_smile:

3

I’m afraid our entire country is embroiled in a spirit of “us v. them” mindset. We are completely polarized. Civility has taken a backseat to mudslinging. Blind faith has replaced reasonable discourse. When you have this kind of culture, you lose the ability to be rational. You lose your taste for compromise.

If the other side comes up with a proposal, it’s poison for no other reason than because because “they” drafted it.

For instance, it seems to me that banning automatic weapons, or making ammunition purchasing for certain types of weapons very difficult, is a no-brainer. Not to some people. They think that if they give an inch, momentum will be shifted and the next day they’ll have to give up their hunting rifles.

On the other side of the coin, the liberals can be just as hard-headed. Bring up one of their pet causes, and they shut down the discussion.

So rational people who can actually see a middle ground on issues are left to scratch their heads and wonder what happened to their countrymates to make them so unyielding and humorless.

It’s a strange, frustrating world, these “United” States.

4

They do. And then the other party becomes the majority and repeals them. There was an assault weapons ban enacted under Clinton and a Democratic Congress in 1994. Ten years later it expired, and we know who was in charge then. No serious attempt has been made since to renew it or enact a different version.

As a recent op-ed noted: All countries have an excess of sociopaths; America is the only country that provides the technology to act on it. In a letter to the paper today, somebody pointed out that it’s probably too late to enact bans on large capacity magazines, or even on assault-style weapons, as that ship has already sailed. It’s too easy to find those items, either to buy or steal, and the attrition on things made of metal is long term; they’ll be around for a long time.

The right wing nutters, aided and abetted by Fox wackos, gun manufacturers and the NRA, have created an hysteria among gun collectors and nuts by hinting darkly that Obama and others are coming to take their guns away. They have far bigger fish to fry, of course, but that doesn’t stop the yammering.

FWIW, I own both a rifle and a pistol, both 22 cal. The rifle is a 50 year old bolt action that I got for Christmas one year. The pistol is new and is for home/RV defense. Some would argue that it’s not much defense, but then they’ve never been downrange from me. :stuck_out_tongue:

So it seems that the only way to even begin to attack the problem is to be much more aggressive in identifying alienated sickos and to ramp up security at places like schools, malls, etc. In other words, become an armed camp to some extent, and become way more security conscious than we are. A sad situation, certainly.

5

Primarily this would be because guns are not the problem. What they are is a symptom of many underlying problems that we simply cannot address effectively without sea changes to American society and culture.

The rampagers are pretty uncommon, and in the panoramic picture of American life, not a real concern for the lion’s share of Americans. I, for example, have yet to actually witness a gun being fired in a public place (not counting, e.g., a firing range, where guns are to be expected), or for that matter, even seen one brandished. This makes me like tens or hundreds of millions of other Americans. It is just not that much of an issue, for the non-cripplingly-paranoid, at least.

The rampagers are people who have entered a headspace most of us cannot begin to imagine. Sometimes this is a matter of mental and/or emotional problems (how convenient, just chalk it up to teh crazy), but sometimes not. Many nutcases function nominally for a lifetime without visiting severe trauma upon others (review various internet forums), some of them even own guns.

What I see in these rampagers is a sort of nihilistic desperation, and end-point to the unholy stew that has simmered within them before finally boiling up and over. This desperation is the thing we must look to, and the solutions are not palatable to many Americans, especially the most powerful ones (who tend to be sociopathic) and the gun strokers.

So the gun debate provides a nice diversion from looking at our real problems. In the end, nothing will get solved, or even mitigated, because all we do is look at the sheen on the surface and talk past each other.

6

It’s not the guns; it’s the “rampagers”. Bullshit.
You don’t think you should TRY to prevent people amassing arsenals your average SEAL would deem overkill?

“It doesn’t solve the real problems” Bullshit, you better the world solving one problem at the time and right now the problem staring America in the face is an abundance of badly regulated firearms.

7

There are already projects attempting to “print” a gun, and while they’re in the nascent stages, they’ve managed to fire multiple rounds using a model downloaded off the internet. We’re not very far from being unable to effectively ban any durable goods made of metal or plastic.

8

Oh, come on, that is not at all what I said, stop trying to make me sound like the NRFuckingA. It is not the rampagers as such, they only represent a symptom of the myriad underlying issues. They have reached a point of untenable desperation. Why? What drives people to that point? That is what we should be looking at.

Certainly we should try to rein in that concern. ISTR one poster who favored more regulation even though he claimed to be better armed than Uruguay (might have been another forum), what causes that? Why do people feel the need for a garage full of steel linghams? We really ought to look into that.

You are talking about putting a band-aid on an abscess. It might contain the leakage, but the infection will just get worse. Perhaps we ought to outlaw the NRfuckingA, I would be in favor of that, or something that might at least improve the signal-to-noise ratio if we want to discuss guns in a reasonable manner.

But the guns are out there, the genie is out of the bottle, I think there may even be people who still own those Street Sweeper things. How do you suggest we deal with that? You cannot simply confiscate legal weapons without a major backlash, what alternative plan do you have to offer?

9

That’s the cycle of gun ownership that we Australians just don’t have, not many crim on non-crim crime involves guns, these are normally reserved for big robberies, drug crime etc.

10

I’m so glad you opened yet another thread on the subject. It wasn’t being discussed enough.

11

Then why are you asking them questions, dumbass?

Because the gun control side has demonstrated that they do not act in good faith. There are only two reasons to believe the Federal Assault Weapons Ban was in any way a good idea: you are stupid, or you are corrupt. Every legislator that helped pass a law singling out pistol grips and bayonet mounts as threats that needed to be restricted is proof that the gun control side doesn’t give a fuck about actually solving the problem.

12

Rampagers are gonna find whatever is at their disposal; always have, always will. I would be curious to see some statistics on European countries with gun control laws in place and if there was in increase in bombings since then, especially in the UK.

I own no guns, and I am not leaning on either side of of the gun control issue…but I would like to see a more thorough background check for each purchase and/or annual licenses/accountability for each gun legally owned, that really should be a no-brainer for the majority of us, but rampagers will always rampage…this current one just chose guns as his weapon of choice…he was probably smart enough to build bombs from scratch if there were no guns accessible to him.

I take your call of BS with a grain of salt.

13

See, there, at the top of the page? Where it says “BBQ Pit”? This thread is for venting, spark suppressors off.

Because the gun rights lobby has no interest in negotiating for a calmer society. They just wave the second half of the second amendment around and cry, “Leave us alone! Arm yourself if you want to live!”

14

What do you have against yeoman farmers? Those fields won’t keep themselves free of crows!

15

It’s an epidemic! At this rate, we’re due for another mass bombing in 2063.

16

Since there are two active Pit threads already about the subject it’s more about the OP jumping up and down saying “look at me!” than venting. His comments might be lost in between everyone else’s so he get to be the star of his very own thread. Then we get to see how clever he is.

17

Oh, how I wish…

18

One reason I tend to roll my eyes at proposals like this is they nearly always reveal a fundamental ignorance about the subject.

For example, you suggest banning automatic weapons. Automatic weapons are essentially banned already; they require a prohibitively expensive federal license to own and to transfer. I don’t know anyone who owns one.

You might mean semi-automatic weapons, but that’s such a significant difference that it suggests you really don’t understand the subject.

Your ammunition proposal similarly betrays an ignorance of the subject. Ammunition is not all that high-tech: I have several friends who reload. This means they have dies and molds in their homes and essentially manufacture their own ammunition. Did you know how common this was? Or that it was possible?

For you to describe this as a “no-brainer,” sort of puts the icing on the cake.

Do you have any experience with firearms at all?

Do you think there might be some folly in proposing solutions in areas where you have no experience and asserting those solutions are “no brainers?”

19

Well, speaking as a gun owner myself, part of the appeal of firearms, to me at least, is their historic significance, let me give you three examples from my “arsenal”

Parker VH 12-gauge side-by-side shotgun, (2 shot break-action) manufactured in the early 1920’s, and has passed down through my family for four generations, the bluing is still reasonably good, as is the case hardened rainbow-hued receiver, it’s a family heirloom, and it is still just as solid as the day it came off the Parker assembly line, e Parker firearms company is long gon, yet their products are still bringing enjoyment and memories to those lucky enough to own one
( original Parkers can be valued anywhere from $800 upwards depending on condition, mine is probably around $2500 as its a base model, but still in excellent condition)

Mosin-Nagant 91/30 (5 shot bolt action) mine was made in 1930 in the Izhevesk factory, and is a hex-receiver model (better fit and finish than wartime production round receiver Mosins), all the serial numbers match (bolt, magazine floor plate, receiver, AND bayonet, a Mosin with a matching bayonet is rather uncommon), the 7.62x54R cartridge is one of the oldest rifle cartridges still in active production today

I have an authentic WWII relic, one that probably actually saw action in some form, and all for the princely sum of $160, where else can you find that kind of value, and it is still usable as a rifle even now, and it’s simply oozing with history (and cosmoline :wink: ), oh the tales it could tell if only it could talk…and if I understood Russian… :wink:

What do I use this for? Plinking, yes, plinking, I load up a cartridge with a fluffy, low pressure gunpowder like Trail Boss, seat a soft point bullet in the case, and target shoot, these “powderpuff” rounds have little more recoil than a .22 Magnum, I love the dichotomy of shouldering an old war-horse that has the reputation as a hard-kicking, flame-spewing, eardrum crushing monster and have it be only marginally worse than a .22 Mag…

Finally, one of my real favorites, my Marlin 39a lever-action .22, the model 39 holds the world record of being the oldest and longest continually-produced shoulder firearm in the world, mine is somewhat modern, a 1980 vintage model, but like the classic 39a’s of old, mine does not kowtow to lawyers and other nannies, my 39 was made back in the days when the most foolproof safety was that squishy gray mass between the ears, the only mechanical safety on mine is the “half-cock notch”, no cross bolt safety and rebounding hammer on this one (any 39 made from '83 onward will have a cross bolt safety, newer models also added a rebounding hammer, which has been known to cause reliability and ignition issues, a second strike will usually set the round off in most cases

Just like with my other examples above, the 39a has a historic appeal, and in the case of the 39, an exceptional example of mechanical precision, all parts fit together like a fine watch, and the action is buttery smooth, a true example of old world craftsmanship, when people took pride in what they made, and wanted it to last forever, no disposable consumer culture here

Sorry for getting a little off tangent, just wanted to interject opinion from the “non-rabid gun nut” side of the discussion

20

This thread is, ironically, a good indicator of why we boorish retarded ill-informed gun owners get uneasy when you enlightened folks start proposing laws. Because you have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about.

Talking up the nonsensical assault weapons ban that banned scary looking features on guns that didn’t affect their functionality, and which had no effect on crime committed with the sort of guns it purported to control, which are an almost immeasurely miniscule percentage of gun crime anyway?

“Arsenals that your average navy seal think was overkill”? Are we talking about number of guns, as if someone is going to wield 20 guns at a time, or type? The actual sort of weapons a seal would use are already ridiculously restricted to own and no private citizen has ever committed a crime with one. Why don’t we throw out how these are “weapons of mass destruction” because they look scary.

You idiots will support any gun control legislation thrown in front of you, no matter how nonsensical, no matter how little it’s actually targeted at the problem. You idiots are what get us utterly nonsensical laws like the assault weapons ban, and you’re completely unconcerned whether that law actually had any positive effect at all. You’re not even interested in whether “assault weapons” are even a problem that needs to be solved - as you’ve been told over and over again that these things are both different from “normal” guns not by how they function or their capabilities but by what they look like, and you’ve been told they’re involved in a miniscule percentage of gun crimes.

In the 80s and early 90s, there was a craze about “cop killer bullets”. Some legislators came up with a law that would ban any ammunition made that could penetrate a level 1 bulletproof vest. Sounds reasonable, right? “Common sense” gun legislation, why would people need guns powerful enough to penetrate bulletproof vests.
Well, congrats, because you just proposed a law to ban ALL RIFLE AMMUNITION from fucking civil war muskets to the .22 your grandpa let you shoot when you were a kid. Bulletproof vests are designed to stop pistol rounds, which have much less energy. And then when the NRA opposes what is a de facto ban on rifle ammunition, you come in screaming “THE NRA SUPPORTS COP KILLER BULLETS!”

Gun rights advocates get nervous when you guys start proposing “common sense” laws because you’re all a bunch of fucking morons who have no idea what you’re talking about, and your proposals are always fucking dumb shit, never address the purported problems they claim to want to solve, and do nothing but infringe on the people who never hurt anyone with their guns anyway.