Yeah, you’re talking about good breeding and manners. And I think it’s less common these days than it was before. I don’t think it’s a specifically regional thing.
It’s not a lie, OpalCat, we really are being polite. Sometimes a lot more polite than the situation calls for.
In my opinion, smiling and nodding and acting like nothing is wrong and like you like a person when actually you are mad at them is a lie. And if I find out someone is one of those people, I don’t want to be around them because I will never know how they really feel. I have had it happen in the past where I’ve found out through other people that someone was upset with me, etc, and I’ve also been the one who the faker confided to after the fact. It’s dishonest and offensive.
It’s OK. Notice that I am still being polite to you.
It’s OK. Notice that I am still being polite to you.
But please do not confuse being polite with saying nothing. For instance, I do take exception to the sorta implied thing there that we don’t say “Well, here’s where I have a problem with what you said.”
Or, “I definitely and wholeheartedly disagree with that.”
We DO say things like that. We just don’t go immediately into a red-faced confrontation death match over trivia. Even if offended, it is regarded as preferable to make the situation known, but in polite terms. Getting mad is not the first line of defense, it’s something to be dealt with internally and give the other person the benefit of the doubt.
I never said that we hide things, just that we remain polite until…whatever… Do not read that to mean that we just keep silent and backstab you later. This was never my meaning.
I do not do such things, and I do not think you meant to imply that all of us do do such, but I would like for you to not paint everyone who displays a little self control and manners to be lumped into the general cesspool of backstabbing liars.
Frankly, it is not a big deal, so don’t read too much into this, but you did hurt my feelings just a little bit at that. Hope we can still be friends.
Errr, I never said you did anything of the kind. I believe you and I are probably talking about two entirely different things. Being gracious while expressing your true feelings is one thing. Completely faking positive feelings and never expressing your real opinion is completely different. You say “We DO say things like that” etc., which pretty much means that the “we” you describe is not the group of people I am talking about.
I will give you a more specific (yet fictitious) example of the kind of thing I mean:
Sally is at a party, and during a conversation mentions that she doesn’t like hooziegizmos. Sue hears this and takes offense, because hooziegizmos are near and dear to her and she makes various assumtions (or whatever) about Sally as a result. It bothers her enough that she comments to Betty the next day that she doesn’t care for Sue because of the conversation. However, during the party, Sue never said anything at all to Sally about it, instead she continued to have a pleasant conversation, and Sally went home thinking that she’d made a new potential friend in Sue. When Sue hears from Betty later that Sue had been offended and had formed a negative opinion about her, she is hurt and embarrassed, because she had no idea she’d offended Sue, and as a result she had kind of gone on and on about the hooziegizmos longer than she otherwise would have. If she’d have known, she may have had a chance to explain that a hooziegizmo killed her father (or whatever) or she would have been able to say “oh, ok, well let’s change the subject” or something. Instead she was led to believe nothing was wrong and in the future she knows that no matter what her real feelings are, Sue will always pretend to be happy and nice. So she avoids Sue from now on because she doesn’t want to offend her again, and she knows she will have no way of gauging if she is doing so.
(This specific example is obviously generic, but the offense could be anything from something you said to something you did to your political beliefs or whatever–it doesn’t matter. The point is that the person was offended/hurt/mad/or otherwise negatively effected by it and yet gave no indication of that whatsoever, instead letting the person giving offense believe nothing at all was amiss.)
I spent a lot of time in the South (the “old South”) and there was a genteel factor. Of course, you have to remember the two main factors.
Small, isolated communities – it doesn’t do anyone much good to start having blood feuds in a town of 3,000 people where everyone has to deal with everyone else every day. People had to maintain the aura of politeness and respect or the sheriff would spend all his time locking up people for murder.
You see the same dynamic in small towns in other parts of the U.S., as well.
Heat and humidity – if you never experienced a typical Southern summer in the days before air conditioning, you can’t imagine how crushing 90 degree heat and 80 percent humidity day in and day out can be. Getting mad or making other people get mad just made things worse.
These days Southerners have access to both air conditioning and Interstate highways. But the tradition lingers.
I should add, by the way, that my boyfriend of nearly 2 years was born and raised in Atlanta, and I now live in Atlanta myself. I have no problem with “Southern culture” (obviously except for things like racism, which are a separate thing and not at all part-and-parcel of the culture being discussed, but could be classified as its own “Southern culture”*) nor do I think that “genteel manners” or politeness are a bad thing. When I said “Oooh, I HATE that” I was referring to a very specific behavior/trait that fell within the scope of what was mentioned, and I then went on to clarify the specific type I have an issue with.
*(I hate how I have to preemptively defend myself but I know how people think and what I’ll get accused of after I say something, so here goes: I don’t think that racism is the exclusive domain of the South, nor do I think that all people in the South are racist, nor do I think that the “genteel Southern culture” of today which is the topic of this thread has any connection to racism. I just didn’t want someone jumping on me for saying I had no problem with Southern culture by saying “so you agree with racism!?!?” since it is unfortunately still a common culture of its own, and moreso in this part of the country. Whew.)
I have to disagree with you there, although I want you to know that I didn’t miss the qualifying words “of today” in your post quoted above, but I hope we agree that this thread deserves not to evolve into a larger, unfocused discussion on racism.
Ayway, I’ll go you one further: many of the genteel folk of the New South, living in McMansions on Lake Lanier, hoping for it to be featured in Southern Living, are transplanted Northerners.
I’m a transplanted Northerner myself, and back in Washington State I couldn’t help but notice the hypocrisy of the liberal yuppies of Seattle who looked upon the working classes of Puget Sound with disdain. (anyone remember how that show Almost Live used to gently poke fun of Seattle’s love of coffee, and then portray the people in Enumclaw as wife-beating drunks?) Here in Georgia it’s conservative yuppies looking on Bubba with the same patronising contempt.
Maybe my problem with gentility is that I’ve never seen it practiced by anyone who has achieved it on his or her own.
Again, not that this applies strictly to Southerners. Brits burned up about the whole “Merry England” trend have the same gripes. One Southern-specific complaint I do have is this: I have always been able to take someone’s hands in mine and say “bless your heart,” and communicate something very special to him or her. Down in Georgia, "Bless your heart’ is politespeak for “Fuck You.”
Thanks Scarlett. You bitch.
I added the “of today” because of the previous poster who opined on the origin of the gentility. I have no idea what the origin is, but I am fairly confident that the tradition today is based on…tradition…rather than on racism, so I qualified it to acknowledge that there may have been a connection in the past. As for disagreeing with me… eh… I mean obviously you are free to disagree with whatever you like, but my statement was really pretty innocuous, I think, at least in its intent. That is, it acknowledges that there is a set of behavior and traditions that can be lumped together into something called “Southern culture” which is…well “practiced” isn’t the right word but you know what I mean… but anyway, “practiced” by a wide range of people, racists and non-racists alike. I do not deny that there is a lot of crossover, or that a lot of people who …uh…“practice” (gotta think of a better word…) Southern culture are indeed racist. Just that I think you can separate the two as different elements.
Tangent: I know some people get defensive if you say the South is racist… and I’ve lived in Atlanta* for a year and a half now and have met a lot of people, most of whom are not racist, so I would never say “Southerners are, as a group, racist”. However… I was in high school before I ever heard someone use “the N word” other than in a movie or, say, a black comedian or something. I had never actually heard someone use it to refer to an actual black person, as a slur. And it was during the year I lived in Florida that I heard it. And heard it a lot. And heard a lot of other really hateful, racist stuff. And I’ve seen it some since moving to Georgia. Growing up in Tucson I just didn’t see it like that. Not to say that Tucson has no racism–that’s far from true–but it isn’t anything like it is in the South. Whether it’s actually more common here or just expressed more, or expressed more obviously, I can’t say. But it’s more noticeable here, by far.
*Atlanta is often said to not actually be “the South”, I realize.
Ditto.
For me, I did not actually hear it myself. It was in the first 4 months I lived here (I’ve only lived here 7 months total.) It was said to someone else (a Caucasian), over the phone, and she relayed to me how ugly she thought it was.
What blows my mind are the Stars 'n Bars bumperstickers. I see them all the time.
I have also seen Dixie T-shirts which display the Rebel flag and say something along the lines of “If this insults you, you need a history lesson.”
I haven’t had the guts to ask the wearer what this means.
Can anyone explain?
I enjoy the “Yes m’am/no m’am Yes sir/no sir” niceties.
(I like grits, too. )
kunilou, I have learned on these boards that Southerners and Canadians have this in common (the politeness and not saying exactly what you mean - Canadians would drive you crazy, too, Opal). I find that fascinating. I have a theory that the legendary Canadian politeness developed as a result of long, cold winters, all cooped up together and trying not to kill each other more than was necessary. It’s an interesting idea that the Southern politeness grew out of the extreme heat the same way.
And I don’t really want to hear every negative thought that pops into somebody’s head. Sometimes it’s better to take a “wait and see” attitude.
It’s not an either/or proposition, control-z. And also, I’m not talking about “every negative thought” but rather “you are doing something that is making me not like you, and I’m pretending to like you anyway, and won’t you feel stupid later when you find out my real feelings” when simply discussing the problem issue at the time would both be more genuine and also give an opportunity to settle the issue.
I’m talking more about mundane day-to-day stuff. Like consider this stereotypical scenario: Bump into someone in NYC, and you might get “Hey, watch where you’re going you asshole!” Bump into someone in Charlotte NC and you’ll probably get “Oh I’m sorry, excuse me.” The person in NC might not like getting bumped into, but they’re not going to make a big deal out of it.
We’re in agreement on that. Perhaps you weren’t replying to me–in which case ignore this-- but it seemed like you were–and what you’re talking about now isn’t even in the same sport let alone ballpark as what I was referring to and describing above. Completely different situation, completely different behavior. I am specifically talking about people who you have extended (longer than passing) communication with, who pretend to like you and smile and nod and agree with you and all that, but really they dislike you or are angry with you or whatever, so that you never feel that you can be sure how they really feel, because no matter how they feel, they put on this act like everything is great. THAT is what I’m talking about.
His kind of comments used to bother me, but it’s something that comes up on every southern-related discussion on this board, so I’ve grown a tolerance to it (unlike every single southern white person to black folk).
The way it is being portrayed, here, there is nothing substantial in Southern civility, at all.
I always refer to people as “sir” or “ma’am.” I always refer to third parties whom I do not know as “that gentleman” or “that lady,” (rather than “that guy”).
People who enter my home are offered liquid refreshment (and, if the time is appropriate), food.
If I have overnight guests, they are provided clean towels and bedclothes.
When people come to my house, I walk out to their car to greet them and to bid them farewell.
I always say “Excuse me,” if I bump into someone–or if I walk across their path not knowing they were there, or walk between them and a supermarket shelf they are studying from the far side of the aisle.
In turn, nearly every person I know (few of whom have ever lived in the South) behaves the same way.
The only difference I can see is that there are more ritual speeches delivered in the South, which is fine, but it only indicates speech patterns, not civility. I think a claim for graciousness in speech might be supportable.