These questions seem kind of odd. Are you trying to chose a religion? Wouldn’t you rather have information about the various choices in that case? Maybe you have buyer’s regret about a choice you already made. Nobody is bound to a choice like that, if you’ve learned something new, choose again, or just opt out. That’s really what freedom of religion is all about.
I don’t understand what’s odd about them. I struggle with dilemmas related to all of these questions and wonder how others deal with the issues from within their own traditions.
I tried to pick one where nobody is put to death or persecuted for their beliefs, or that religion attacked other religions with violence. I chose Buddhism, but my wife forced me to become a methodist.
I come to the straight dope and ask people to explain outrageous statements from the bible.
Nope. I believe in freedom of thought, religion, opinion, and speech. If somebodyh has an opinion at odds with mine, I am fine with letting it go. I really don’t like people who spend a lot of time trying to convince everybody else their thinking is the only right way.
Constitution, by far. I’m not really sure why. I think my early college life working for the school newspaper made me a big fan.
If you are asking for a systematic defense of Christianity, that is a heck of a lot more than one thread will hold, and will get us kicked off to the Pit faster than you can say Jack Chick.
The short answer is that it seems to me logically necessary that there is a transcendent Creator who is the source and ground of all being and all morality. This means that one or another of the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism, or Islam) are closest to the truth.
Based on an examination of the moral teachings of each, Christianity is closest to the truth, as far as I can tell. This is largely because Christianity is pretty much a refinement of Islam and Judaism - not historically, since Judaism predates both Christianity and Islam, but in terms of its moral doctrine. Islam seems very much like a seventh-century version of what Judaism might have been like before the accrual of the later ceremonial and civic laws, but with the sort of tribal mentality common both to Judaism and Islam - those on the inside are good, those on the outside are bad.
Christianity is more nearly universal in its teachings. At its core, what it teaches is that the two most important things are “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength”, and “you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself”. The truth of these two seems to me to be self-evident.
Which speaks to one of your questions - how do I feel when my co-religionists says something contrary to either of those teachings. ISTM that, once one has one’s priorities straight, one can see if a dispute is in conflict with the above commands, and is therefore serious, or is just a dispute about non-essentials. If it is the first, I speak against it. If the second, we can agree to disagree. Therefore most disputes about the differing flavors of religion are non-essential and not worth the effort to argue them, except for fun (if your tastes lie in that direction).
I became actively Christian back in 1975 at age 13. I’ll admit that I was caught up heh heh into Rapture Theology, reading Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth & being fascinated with how the State of Israel, the European Community, the Soviet Union & Red China all seemed to fit into End-Times Bible Prophecy. That was where I started but I didn’t remain there. I’ve pretty much abandoned Rapturism but I retained these aspects from my Bible Prophecy studies…
A Wonder at how the Jews have survived and thrived in spite of millenia of persecution even to the point of restoring their nation after 1878 years in exile and their capital city 19 years later (I still believe there is Biblical prophetic significance to the State of Israel & Jerusalem- but not of the Rapturist type);
The Revelation to John gives a perspective to the rise and fall of civilizations in the Christian Era- the 70 AD Siege of Jerusalem, the Fall of the Western Roman Empire to the Northern & Eastern barbarians, the Fall of the Eastern Roman Empire to Arabic & Turkish Islamic armies, the Papacy, the Protestant Reformation, the Enlightenment and the Age of Revolution, and now the Age of Globalization- and how through it all, against the various manifestations of the Beast’s Tyranny and the Harlot’s Apostasy, The Christian Faith and The Church abide and Jesus Christ reigns as Lord over it all;
As the Scriptures say “The Son of Man cometh at a time you think not” and "The Day of the Lord shall come as a Thief in the Night’ and I do believe those passages mainly refer to the Return of Jesus at The End, I also believe they apply to those throngs of people who every minute find that their world has ended and they now facing Christ to account for their lives;
Finally,- Jesus brings meaning, significance, and hope in the midst of what seems to be a cold chaotic lonely world. Some may find it easy to believe that all this is mindless matter in motion- I do not. I see Design and therefore a Designer- and of the panoply of Gods offered to us by all the world religions-
Jesus is the Epitome’ of what I want God to be- One Who makes & keeps Covenant with humanity, One Who takes all the evils we suffer & we perpetrate upon Himself, and One Who offers Eternity to all who throw themselves upon Him.
Wow Friar Ted. I think this is the first time I have ever heard anyone on SD put my beliefs in such a beautiful and knowledgeable way. Thank you, I’m inspired!
I honestly don’t really like to share my personal views on religion that often, but I started typing and it just started rambling. So for the sake of others, I’ll spoiler it all, but here you go OP. Hope that’ll give you an idea of my thoughts.
Religion- Mine’s nice as it’s entrenched into the Culture, of course the fact that I was born and raised in the USA, pretty much threw a wrench into that plan. That said, I grew up raised with my religious views, and though I rebelled and complained quite a bit of the time with “why do I have to do X, or why do we do Y but not Z”, I always considered myself to be a follower of my religion. That said, I probably wasn’t that orthodox, but I certainly felt I was quite spiritual- as there are plenty of speakers and scholars, who point out contradictory ideas and views on how to interpret my religion. It was tricky pretty much wading through that mess- and then when I went to college I took a class on my religion- and learned even more about how many sects, branches, and small groups there were- as well as even more scholars, poets, and teachers, all with their own ideas of what my religion really was. And I also continued down my science major, and took a class called “Human Nature” taught by a very cold but friendly science professor, who analyzed the various philosophies, and parts of human behavior from an evolutionary and biological perspective- it was cold but refreshing, and I loved the class.
That said, around after that Class, I became closer and closer to pretty much being an atheist. My religious views weren’t really a major part of my life, and I was more rational and scientific about how life worked. I also was going through a pretty rough breakup at the time, and it just seemed to work the whole cynical phase.
That said- I wasn’t really happy, more so about the breakups and life changes, rather than the religious thoughts. But I decided to get back into my religion- first I took that class (as I mentioned above), and learned a bit more about myself and my religion. And then I realized, I don’t think I could currently believe in God, but I certainly didn’t see the harm in God believing in me. My religion is quite messy and complicated, and I felt that religion should really be a private thing rather than a mass social function to hold the masses together in preserving mutual interests and promoting social ties. So I personalized my religion- I took aspects of it, and looked at what the famous scholars had said, and then I looked at what others had to say opposite to that- and I pretty much Macguyver’ed my own personal views based on that- I value learning and knowledge, but I also believe in compassion, forgiveness, and love in a smaller and greater sense. So I found out where those were in my religion and I learned more about those ideas and such.
I also learned about other religions- I had gone to a Lutheran School for most of my elementary school days, and that’s where most of my views of Christianity came from, as well as the few friends in college I had who were christian (though I tended to get along better with Atheists and Agnostics- they were nicer about my views, and much less likely to try to convert me or take offense at it- so I tend to have a positive view of them- hell I considered myself one for a while!).
Through all that, I pretty much just created a personal sense of just who I am as a person first and foremost. And then the religion just sorta came afterward- I figured out who “I” was first, and then I saw what fit to that. Perhaps one of the best ways I’d heard it summarized was from a friend of mine in a prison of all places- he said “There’s only two ways you can get through to people to understand, and really only one way.”*
“If it doesn’t make sense up here (pointing to his head), it’s not going to work for them. But that’s really bullshit. The real truth is- if it doesn’t make sense here (points to heart) it’s not going to make sense there (points to head)”*
That quote and one told to me by my grandfather (as well as a few other scholars of my religion) have really stood out for me, to sum up the ideas- Basically, all the world’s religions are simply paths up a mountain. Each one has their own paths and trails, and though everyone takes different paths up the mountains (some even just choose to just stay back at base camp and be more productive- My Edit:p), but in the end, all the paths lead up to the same destination- one that we cannot ever really know while we’re still climbing up the mountain. It make take us lifetimes to ascend the mountain, or maybe even the single life we may have here is enough- but if you simply focus only trying to reach the top without enjoying the journey or trying to help your fellow man, you’ve missed the point of the mountain already and never really started your climb. That said- just because you’ve chosen your path in life- you shouldn’t criticize your fellow men for their choices and paths, because in the end, we’re all heading towards the same destination, and all of us are on the same journey in this world.
I always liked that metaphor, and he was much more succinct and better at explaining it than I growing up, but it was something that meshed for me. So that’s pretty much what I did. I am making my way up the mountain, following the path that has been set out, but I do diverge at times, and borrow ideas from other paths in life. Basically, if it makes sense to me here, and it makes sense to me there, then I’ll incorporate it.
People who present conflicting ideas are the norm for me. It’s always been a part of the territory even when you’re not being as odd as I was about religion- there are orthodox, ultra-conservatives, and “hippies/new age” people out there all trying to interpret their own ideas across the spectrum. I give them a listen, but I stick with what works for me. But if it makes sense, and I like it, I’ll think about it. Part of it is realizing that we as Humans are inherently flawed and biased creatures (the Human Nature course talking there), and so I tend to take things said by us with a grain of salt. I’m not really a fan of “organized” religion per se, but I believe one should pursue religion only if they really want to for themselves. I tend to use the religious teachings and mythologies as parables, and basically stories that give us an idea of how to behave an interact with each other- there are archetypes in life, and we can strive to better ourselves by seeing how the archetypes were at work, or we can choose to ignore it and simply accept it with blind faith I suppose. I’m not really a fan of the latter. That said, I believe my grandfather is one of the most moral figured I’ve ever known, and I do strive to be like him- but I think that’s just naturally a person looking for a father figure sort of thing, it just happens that he happens to be very religious and devout, but in an awesomely cool way, which has really been accepting and loving of the fact that I would ask so many questions. If I asked my more “traditionally religious” mother as a Kid about religious questions and stories and such, often she couldn’t answer them anymore would just tell me, “Just wait to ask your Grandfather.” And so I did, and he was always patient and try to basically help me figure things out for myself- he was very big on “these are stories that might help you understand, but if not, let’s take a look at some books and see if we can’t figure out what these guys have to say, and then see if that makes sense for you.” It was very much a do-it-yourself attitude, with a huge emphasis on Seeking knowledge for oneself, rather than being told what’s what. I hope to some day do that with my own children.
See the Mountain Metaphor- I try to listen to them, but if I disagree, more often than not, I’ll smile and nod my head. I’m a big believer in Religion in a personal choice, and I’m not any more “right” or “wrong” than another person based simply on my interpretation of human events vs. someone else. That said- I’m not a fan of extremists or fanatics of any sort- here’s where I tend to follow Aristotle and the “Golden Mean” sorta rule more- people who tend to be extremes on one side or the other, or are determined to try to bring me over to their side- I tend to stray away from them and don’t really hang around them. I prefer everything in moderation. But if asked, I’ll answer questions about my views sometimes, but for the most part, I’ll just smile and nod, or maybe try to correct an erroneous viewpoint (from a factual viewpoint or such).
My political views tend to be moderate, again more from Aristotle than my own religious views, but I’m really digging on the whole, making sense in the heart thing- as I’m realizing more and more after College and all that I think I fall into the Social Liberal camp- I tend to believe in equality for all people, and I believe in a major separation of Church and State. But it’d be foolishly to simply say that My Religious views are higher than my State Views, or vice versa- each one goes on a case by case bases, and I pretty much read up on the facts, and get the information, and then see what my brain and my heart say and that’s my choice.
As a wise man once said, “Only Sith deal in absolutes.”
My Religious view? I don’t really know what it is. It’s a mix of things, and some times it even changes from day to day. Things like being an Agnostic vs. Atheist vs. Deist really sorta change, but I guess it could be summed up as “I’m not sure if God really exists, because I can’t prove it- but I think it’s a nice idea.” I personally think that if there is a God, either he doesn’t really care about these things, or that perhaps God is simply what we as humans are using to call the higher orders of rules/scientific of that which created and governed this universe, including the ones we simply haven’t discovered or been able to observe yet, or I think something else sometimes. But in the end, it’s not really the end that matters, but the journey of getting there- at least for this world and dealing with it. If there’s something beyond, I’ll use the rules and things I’ve learned up to that point to figure out that world. But that’s not the here and the now of this universe and this world, ya know?
Bah- I couldn’t even sum that up easily. This is why I just smile and nod. More often than not, I just tell people I’m Hindu and they leave me be for the most part. Nothing more, nothing less. Though I guess if we wanted to be specific, I was raised in the Shaivism sect, as a Brahmin caste (Not a big fan of the whole Caste thing btw, didn’t mesh with the heart FYI), and I’ve been raised by my mother to tend to be a bit favored towards the matriarchal goddesses, but I am also a Monotheistic Hindu for what its worth- even at times probably again bordering on Agnostic Hindu, which my views on God as simply Science, and the pursuit of knowledge one of the goals of this world.
But yeah- I guess I’m a Hindu.
Hope that helps.
We’ll see how much sense that makes in the morning…
To give a complete answer I would have to tell my entire life story, but the short version is as follows. I was born to a strongly atheist father and a mother who didn’t care about religion. I was educated in an American public school and attended a college of science and engineering. As you could guess, most of my education was hostile to religion and the part that wasn’t was largely indifferent, so by the time I was about 18 I had a very firm, negative attitude towards religion and Christianity in particular. (You can still read my posts on the subject on this board from roughly 2000-2004.) Besides which, I was strongly attached to a community that was strongly secular and politically left-wing and we had many reasons for viewing ourselves as vastly better than just about everyone else. We were generous and helped the poor while everyone else was greedy. We were tolerant towards blacks and other minorities while everyone else was racist and bigoted. We were brilliant, rational, and scientific, while everyone else was too stupid to distinguish reality from ancient fairy tales.
As I went through college I started to notice some problems with this worldview. It seemed that very often the reality did not match up with the words. For example, despite our bragging about how generous we were to the poor, it was tough to find any examples where we actually helped the poor directly. Mostly it seemed that we just wanted political policies that would give money to the poor. Or despite the fact that we were so very tolerant, we certainly seemed keen on silencing anybody on campus that we didn’t agree with. Or despite the fact that we were so loving of other races, we didn’t seem to have any outreach to racial minorities in the area. Or despite the fact that we were so rational and scientific, we seemed to depend on a lot of claims that had no factual basis. etc…
So after having a prolonged crisis in my final year of college and the start of graduate school, I new that I needed some place to belong. I still held to my original values of helping the poor, loving all people, and having a firm logical basis for one’s beliefs. Fortunately, around that time I was introduced to some of the Christian intellectual tradition that has been eliminated from most of our education system. The more of it I encountered, the more I realized that Christian beliefs were my beliefs, only more all-encompassing and placed on a more solid foundation. And that is how I became a Christian.
Generally speaking I believe that the leadership of my church (the Episcopal Church in the USA) is very sane, intelligent, and trustworthy, and that their beliefs and practices provide a wonderful basis for sound living. Do I think they’re perfect? No, but I am consistently impressed with them, especially when compared to the alternatives.
As for whether I try to argue with those Christians of a more fundamentalist bent than myself, it depends on the circumstances. Online I frequently debate with other Christians, while offline I’m more cautious about it.
In answer to that question, I’m fond of quoting the Ltter from Birmingham Jail by Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.
I don’t get why you’re afraid of Muslims either. But what do I know about the massive Muslim community of New Hampshire? Maybe they’re really scary there, what with all of their breaking of banking laws and interfering with your right to free speech! Makes me glad to live in SE Michigan, where the Muslims are just ordinary folk.
I’m an atheist, so I’m not sure how to answer the OP’s questions. I didn’t choose to be an atheist, it’s how I was raised, and all religion seems pretty silly to me. I do try to respect other people’s religious beliefs, but get irritated when they think their beliefs are of higher importance than my Constitutionally-guaranteed freedoms.
The “magic underwear” thing is like any ritual from any religion taken out of context. Christians as a whole believe that if they follow God’s laws and pray and so forth, they’ll be protected, yes? Well, Mormons have a specific token of that idea in the form of special clothing (just like Buddhist robes or Muslim holy garb). Since they don’t feel the need to make this a proclamation to the world of their faith, they made it to be worn underneath regular clothes. It is thus underwear.
Still much fun to make fun of, though, apparently.
First, as most religions suggest, you can do what FEELS right. You attend, you are moved, or you pray and receive a good feeling, or whatever. Many millions of people use this method.
Second, as many other posters have suggested, you can do what you THINK is right. Ignoring feelings for the most part, analyze whether or not their logic makes sense. Could a God have created the known laws of the universe? [humor] Could God make a rock so big he couldn’t lift it? [/humor]
Third, you could decide based on what you want to achieve. Regardless of the “truth” of a given church, churches often allow community involvement and support. If you lose your job and are having trouble caring for your children, your church members will almost always be willing to help, while it would likely be a much more difficult time without a church. Keep in mind that this also goes the other way: by being in a church, you have more opportunity to help others. There are similarly many other reasons one could have for joining a church: simply getting out of the house and meeting new people could be one.
I’m not sure I could state definitively that any of these is “right” and the others “wrong”, but I know I sure lean against the first. I believe that feelings are the mind’s way of estimating a situation and suggesting a course, but said estimation does not always take in all available facts. To my knowledge, feelings do not indicate a connection with spirits from another plane.
People are people, and people are flawed. Unless your particular religion says that person X is infallible, there is not a question of IF this will occur, but rather WHEN. The best choice is to aggressively disagree when things are particularly wrong (ie. say something, not just sit there disagreeing), but simply let the person find their own way on things that aren’t as important.
Attacking someone’s beliefs when they trust blindly will only ever get you into an argument that ends with hurt feelings, in my experience. On the other hand, letting them think as they do, but slowly helping them to think more critically in general (which everyone should probably be doing more anyway), I find, gets good results.
The above has all been pretty general, but I don’t know of a way to answer this question without getting involved with my particular beliefs. So I won’t try.
In my opinion, the greatest good for the greatest number of people is all. If a religion is moral (by which I mean it follows this “greatest good” concept), it is a good religion, regardless of its (perhaps silly) rituals. If it is moral, it is a good thing for people to be a part of in general, up to and including myself.
The Constitution was written similarly for the greatest good. As such, our concepts, at least, are in line. However, given that it was drafted by people who aren’t perfect, and then is over 200 years out of its time and being interpreted by modern people who are themselves fallible, it’s likely that it does not conform to greatest good at all times.
I hold greatest good to be of more value than a particular document outlining the right way to go about accomplishing said greatest good. As an example, I would argue that the original constitution did not outlaw slavery, and I think it’s fairly clear that it therefore did not hold to the greatest good in that case.
I choose my political leanings based on this same principle of greatest good.
I would be hard-pressed, however, to say that it was my religious beliefs that led me to these politics.
