Let's Talk Memes

I have heard snippets here and there about general meme/evolution theory.
[list=1][li]Do you take this idea seriously?[/li][li]Does the scientific community take this idea seriously?[/li][li]If you consider sociology and psychology “not a real science”, do they take it seriously? ;)[/li][/list=1]

It seems to be a very powerful idea. I have always felt that the natural selection paradigm was appropriate for any conflict whatsoever. In the realm of social interaction, the competition of thoughts themselves seems obvious. But is “meme” the right way to think about them?

It seems to be so at first glance. Thoughts certainly compete for our time, and the thoughts that correspond to society as it stands serve to both strengthen society and the persons who have such thoughts. Furthermore, it can even be seen as a guide for societal interaction, and why people are in some ways hard to predict via selfish/altruistic guidelines.

Are memes the hidden variable here? What purpose could understanding memes, should they exist, serve? In biology it is relatively easy to demonstratably find mutation. In the realm of thought… not so easy to show “mutation.” Could meme theory ever stand on the same grounds as evolution?

Could you elaborate, Eris? Could you tell us a bit about memes?

Might want to check this out: http://www.memecentral.com/

They’ve got an FAQ right on the home page.

Oh, I see! Pseudo-Darwinist-Materialist Fundamentalism. As is typical of such systems, the obvious caveats are ignored, especially, in this case, a “good” and “evil” that are tautologically defined by the system itself. Thus, I can memetically justify sodomizing you while I eat cheese crackers.

1: That sort of depends on what one means by “seriously” (he weaseled). From a smattering-level of reading, I like the idea mostly as a metaphor, but am a little dubious that it will ever be anything nearly as solid as genetics. Dawkins has been languishing on my “get around to reading” list for ages, but it’s my impression that when he originated the term, it was mostly as a sort of thought experiment more than a serious suggestion–yes, no? What was the context of his coining the phrase?

2&3, I’ve no idea, being in neither community. :slight_smile:

I read Dr. Susan Blackmore’s “The Meme Machine” a couple years back, and it was a fine read. The “what purpose does it serve?” question did pop up for me, especially in the last couple chapters, in which it becomes very apparent that she believes there is no such thing, really, as will (free or otherwise) or choice. That was a pretty major worldview wall, but I don’t think it’s a necessary one for the idea. Thinking on the idea (using it as a petri dish for compatible meme cultures? :slight_smile: ), it’s given me a better personal handle on the gist of the Right Speech and Thought folds of the Buddha’s Eightfold Path.

If it could stand on the same grounds as evolution (personally, I find that dubious), it’s my impression that it needs much, much more in replicability, not to mention specificity of definition. Does thinking about, say, playful kittens count as a meme? When is something a “meme” and not a “memeplex”? That sort of thing.

Definitional weakness is a big problem for it, tautological or not. A religion might arise and become very successful, that includes ritual Cheese Cracker Sodomy as an essential part of it–the religion’s scripture makes it clear that CGS will be a sign of the covenant between G’Broagfran and Its Chosen throughout the ages, f’r’instance. Meme theorists would view the various ideas supporting that as memes…or meme complexes, or perhaps new terms entirely.

Disbelievers will point out that Cheese Cracker Sodomy and CGS is an abbreviational mismatch, and thus a contradiction. Believers will use various occult numerological techniques to justify the bad acrostic, and meme theorists (the masters of whom I see from the link “gain the ability to program their own minds—and the minds of others!” [Dr. Evil]Riiiiiight[/Dr. Evil]–this is also the kind of thing that gets in the way of scientific communities taking it very seriously, I imagine) would just see the Pointing Out Contradictions as a meme that supports the Anti-G’Brogfran Memeplex.

Memetics is an interesting idea. As others have pointed out, it suffers from internal weaknesses, and I think it runs into the same problem that the social sciences do–too much information is available, and theories are hard to test. It’ll be interesting to see what becomese of it.

When Darwin wrote of his theory of evolution by natural selection, he admitted that while he could desribe how things appeared to be happening, he couldn’t identify the actual mechanism that carried out the changes he described. Early opponents to his theory used this as one of the main rational arguments against it. Ironically, Mendel had produced the evidence that demonstrated the existence of genes in Darwin’s lifetime, but his work remained little known for years.

So by analogy, Dawkins’ theory of memes is equivalent to what Darwin’s theory of evolution was in its early years. At this point no one knows if memes are the real thing or just an intriguing model for whatever actually happens. My personal guess is that Dawkins will not be followed by his Morgan; I doubt that memes have any existance outside of the realm of speculation.

I think that the major weakness is that it doesn’t really offer a whole lot. What are the specific predictions that this “theory” predicts? It’s an interesting way of looking at things, but it’s mostly an ad hoc ecplanation.

Libertarian, I am shocked! Cheese crackers would be most improper! While sodomizing erislover, you should eat pretzels. Or, if you want to be daring, popcorn.

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but memes seem to find “proper” application when we think of populations of like-minded people as a “superorganisms”, right? While genes are passed from generation to generation on the individual level, memes are passed on from generation to generation as social mores, religion, complete ideologies, government philosophies, etc, right? I think there is something that can be learned from the study of memes, particularly in studying the errors made by societies in the past that led to their downfall (such as the Roman and British Empires, etc.)

Dawkins coined the phrase in “Memes: the new replicators” chapter of The Selfish Gene, and he seemed entirely serious. He actually wrote the foreward to The Meme Machine (I’ve got the book sitting next to me on my shelf). I thought it was a great book, but then I’m not big on “free will.”

Not being a meme expert, I like cuckoorex’s phrasing.

I pointed this out in another thread (also to **cuckoorex[/] I think, but the point of memes is to explain how behaviors that do not result in greater passage of the genes, get propagated. For example the early Catholic church putting its best and brightest into the clergy and their genes out of the pool. Thinking of societal organisms and cultural evolution allows for memes with Lamarkian tendencies. Parts of the scientific community takes it seriously. My complaint is that it doesn’t give enough weight to how the concepts get reshaped according to need and also account for the interplay between the genetic and memetic levels of analysis.

Dang, should’ve used preview!

1 Are memes necessary to explain human culture or behavior? No.
Does this mean that the theory of memes is wrong?
Probably.
EG-People want to be rich without effort. Because of this desire they can be taken in by e-mail hoaxes. Thus the “Profit Meme” is totally unnecessary.
I reccomend Jan Harold Brunvand’s books on Urban Legends. His analyses of why some UL’s persist always struck me as dead on. People have needs. They use UL’s to fill those needs. Look at all the rumors regarding the WTC attack. Many attempt to place blame-the government should’ve known, they did know and they should have acted, or Satan did it. Others attempt to give hope-man miraculously survives, unburned Bible found in wreckage etc. People use the stories. The stories do not use people.
2 I’ve been in therapy since 3rd grade. Besides independent studies and high school courses, I was a psychology major in college. IANA a professional working in the field of psychology or sociology, however I think I can have enough expertise to conclude the following.
3 Memes are not relevant to psychology. An understanding of memes will not help to understand or heal the mind of the individual. Sociologists are likely divided on memes. Some specialties within sociology were created to study ideas in culture:their purpose, transmission, and how they change. Unless some major evidence surfaces to prove or disprove memes, sociologists will be debating them centuries from now.

I work in the gene/evolution field. Memes are of course an interesting concept, but as others have pointed out, not really necessary for the function of society or evolution. Therefore, I don’t see what a meme theory would lend to scientific theory.

Sure, it is cute to go around humming “La Cucaracha” and see how many other people are humming it after 10 minutes. Sure, there are striking examples in history of memes affecting entire cultures. But I can’t possibly see how these things could affect societies in the long term. One of the oft-cited meme examples is when IIRC the Xhosa people of South Africa slaughtered all of their cows after white Europeans landed. This led to a huge famine. Well, sure, it killed off some people, but there are still Xhosas. With another meme example, shift of the gene pool caused by recruitment of the clergy, I think you have the same problem: In evolution, usually environmental change has to be severe and long lasting over perhaps hundreds to thousands of generations in order to see a significant change. I don’t think memes can do that.

It does, however, make some theories of neuroscience more interesting. There is a school in neuroscience that tries to explain will or choice on relative neurotransmitter level. For instance, take drug addiction as an example. Dopamine is a so-called “fulfillment” neurotransmitter in many emotional systems of the brain. Having “satisfaction” (again these are touchy-feely kinds of terms) with a comfortable home, a wife, children, the American Dream, yada yada, can be proposed to give you dopamine. One could also supplement their dopamine release with a chemical, for instance cocaine. In fact, one could supplement so much dopamine that the house, the wife, the job, and the kids become unnecessary because one gets more dopamine from cocaine. It is only when the dopamine level is unmaintainable or when the level slips below what one had before that one gets the impetus to quit the cocaine and go back to the house, job, wife, and kids.

Memes may fill an interesting role here as ideas which have more “dopaminergic” appeal that others. In terms of urban legends, we get much more fulfillment out of knowing that an intact unburnt Bible was found in the WTC than knowing the awful truth of people being identified by only DNA found in 2 gram shards of bodies. IMHO we get more fulfillment of being part of a religion which seeks to give precise order to our lives and our places than the truth of the utter lack of evidence of any supernatural power. For most, things which lend hope and structure to our lives, by whatever quirk of neurobiology, are perceived as good. Therefore, as a side effect, these ideas propogate themselves because they give more fulfillment to our brain. Kind of like two pieces of a puzzle fitting together – the idea helps our brain and our brain helps the idea. I still see no way that these ideas could shift things on the scale needed for evolution to kick in.

extremely infectious meme is the democracy meme… i am trying to develop the against democracy meme but based rather on truths than new set of fallacies…

i find idea of memes extremely useful… i very much appreciate that richard dawkins developed this meme…

Originally posted by edwino

In evolution, usually environmental change has to be severe and long lasting over perhaps hundreds to thousands of generations in order to see a significant change. I don’t think memes can do that.


What do you consider to be environment? Are memes not part of the environment? Do we react to memes? If genes react to memes thru sexual selection, and males with preferred memes are selected for by females, does this not determine which genes are left in the gene pool, and meme pool? Can evolution not take place without gene mutation?

Do you take this idea seriously?
Yes. I don’t care much for the FAQ on the linked page, but I think the question is interesting. Does evolutionary pressure apply to the propogation of ideas through human populations? I disagree with those who claim this idea “adds nothing” to science. Do genes add anything to Darwinian evolution?

If memetics proves true (or even useful for predicting the impact, “contagiousness”, and persistence of ideas) then it might have significant impact upon the way psychology and sociology are practiced (not to mention advertising and propoganda).

Does the scientific community take this idea seriously?
Some do. It is a serious idea to which some flaky people have attached themselves, IMO. I think the question is worth asking and worth investigating.

If you consider sociology and psychology “not a real science”, do they take it seriously?
See above. But I would say that an unfortunate number of the flaky people come from these disciplines.

But that might just be sibling rivalry rearing its ugly head. :wink:

Yes, that is an intriguiging and troubling thought, isn’t it?