At a minimum, non-consentual direct or indirect application of force clearly beyond de minimus. In actuality, a pounding. Around here, kids don’t get arrested for minor contact.
All this discussion, unless I missed something, doesn’t address the idea that even if teachers do care, and respond to your reports of bullying, tattling only makes the bullies harass you worse. I had a boy verbally accost me in 7th grade with sexually harrassing comments, ending with grabbing my breast, while we were in study hall. No one else “noticed” (we were in a science classroom, with black lab tables instead of individual desks, so I’m sure the girl sitting four inches from my left or one of the other five people at the table did notice, but you know what I mean) and I was getting bullied so much at that time, unrelentingly all day every day, that it didn’t even register with me. However, I was visiting my aunt a few days later, and something related came up in our conversation so I mentioned the incident to her, and she encouraged me to report the boy, (who was a loser bully jackass, habitual troublemaker and poor student, btw) to the principal. I did so, and he was given three days of in school suspension for it.
Very nice, right?
Except…his girlfriend and some of her friends then proceeded to verbally bully me, then take my street clothes from my gym locker during class and flush them in the toilet, while they laughed at me and told me that if I ever did it again, it would only get worse. My parents were both at work, so I had to wear my sweaty, smelly gym kit for the rest of the day, along with sneakers delightfully filled with toilet water.
I don’t think you can blame me, or any kid, for never, ever telling a principal anything again, even though I was physically assaulted and psychologically terrorized for the next six years every. single. day.
I hear about “anti-bullying” programs now and just laugh. All you’re doing is making the bullied kids’ lives worse, by giving the bullies and all their friends a solid reason to retaliate after their lame-ass “punishments” are over.
Yes, I am still bitter. I think I should be. I’ll never let it go, because why should I? I was tortured from 2nd grade until I graduated from high school, and no one dealt with it in any way that actually helped.
There are anti-bullying programs which are about educating entire schools - students and teachers alike - about the causes and prevention of bullying and how to deal with it. It’s not about just the bullied telling a teacher but about other schoolmates and teachers and the community as a whole helping to prevent bullying and deal with it when it happens.
But, hey, why learn about advanced and intelligent ways to deal with this when resorting to good ol’ fashioned fists worked. Back in the 50s. :rolleyes:
You’re not actually disagreeing with me, you do realize that. I don’t think kids beat the shit out of other kids very often. That is, assault worthy of involving the police. If a kid thinks he’s in real danger, he should defend himself and hope that he can prove it was self-defense. If it’s as obvious as Stratocaster wants to claim, then there should be evidence and records of this kid being a violent prick, because that behavior rarely comes out of nowhere. We know who the violent kids are, and when they hurt someone, they usually get serious consequences. However, if both kids are totally bloody and fucked up, what manner to you recommend in determining who should get punished and who should get off scott free? Even the bully is someone’s kid, and even bullies mount a defense of their actions. Please advise how to discern, in a case of mutual assault, who should get what consequences.
Advanced and intelligent, right. If you say so. Tell you what, you don’t want to be punched in the nose, don’t punch somebody else in the nose. It is absolutely primal how obvious this is. Any policy that protects the bully in defiance of this simple axiom is f@#$ed up. Period.
Perhaps we’re not far off, then. I taught my son that he is never, EVER to be the person who introduces violence into an exchange. But if someone attacks him, he can defend himself, including retaliating in kind. I see nothing inappropriate about that.
If it’s not obvious who the aggressor was, we’ll exercise judgment. I’d assert, however, that we normally are very clear as to who the nasty little prick is.
The problem is, both people are now punched in the nose. If there’s no previous documentation of bullying, and no reliable witnesses, or witnesses who contradict each other, please tell me how the school is supposed to determine who should be punished for the punching and who should get the medal.
This is why you document bullying. If you are on record as saying another kid was picking on you, and if this kid has a history of this, believe me, it will go a long way in your favor when push (literally) comes to shove.
They’ll do their best. But in the moment, if someone attacks my son, he is free to retaliate.
Then you’ll understand if he gets suspended, because we don’t have federal funding to buy crystal balls. The school has to protect every kid, not just yours. If your kid punches another kid in the face, and the other kid says your kid started it, sans other evidence, he’s gonna get bounced just like the other kid. You believe your kid, and you defend him; the other kid’s parents might be just like you. I’m not sure what else you want to hear in this situation. It’s the only logical policy for a school or a society.
Disagree, obviously. I do not for a second believe that in most instances it’s not very clear who the aggressor was. No crystal ball required. In instances where it’s not clear, well, we’ll live with it. But my son is still free to defend himself.
You’re kidding yourself. When you know both kids, sometimes it’s obvious and sometimes, it’s not possible to determine exactly what happened for sure. It’s just not. They both tell a story that supports their innocence, as you’d expect.
This is why I say-- document problems with other kids. It’ll work in your favor. But if you punch someone in the face, don’t expect people who weren’t there to know you’re the victim.
Simple, do not punish a victim for defending. If you can not determine who was defending, then do not punish both for fighting, for that guarantees that you are punishing the victim for fighting. Better to have the aggressor get off occasionally than to punish a victim. If you keep track of the “fights”, you will eventually have a very good idea of who the bullies are, so that when a bully plays the victim card, you can call him or her on it.
In other words, the path of least resistance for the administrators. Like the others here, I am skeptical that there isn’t a clear aggressor in most cases of bullying. But throwing your hands in the air and saying “Well, we gotta punish them equally unless you can provide irrefutable evidence” relieves the teacher and administrator both of the burden of investigation and the responsibility of making a decision. Why trouble themselves to investigate and find the truth, just over a matter of a few kids? One-size-fits-all zero tolerance policies are much easier for the adults involved.
It’s not always a dyad, victim/bully. Sometimes, it’s a fight between two people, each of whom thinks he’s right and the other kid deserves a smack.
God, no, you’re not. Sometimes, OFTEN, you’re punishing two people who chose to fight. Can’t you see it any other way than black and white?
Oh my fucking god, I can’t believe I’m back to this argument again. How the fuck many times do I have to reiterate about the investigations that go on in determining consequences? Where did I say “irrefutable evidence,” as if such a thing exists?
You people are fucking projecting like crazy here. You think everything is black and white, that teachers just want to take the easy way out, because we have no feelings and don’t give a shit if kids are suffering. Really, what else is there to say but go fuck yourself? Since I feel I have explained the whole process and reality of the situation in excruciating fucking detail, but all you can remember is your own victimhood. Goddamn.
Nope, I base it on experience. I understand fully that there are asshole parents who say it’s always the other kid’s fault. But when their kid is in his tenth fight that year, each time with a different kid, I expect the school to be able to, I dunno, actually exercise some judgment. That’s how fistfights were adjudicated when I was a kid, and it seemed to work just fine. It’s only today that things are so gray and ambiguous that it would just be better, you know, if we let someone beat the shit out of us, rather than retaliate, since, after all, that makes it so much easier for the administration to deal with it.
I assert, yet again, that it is axiomatic that one ought to be able to defend oneself. It’s lunacy to suggest otherwise.
I was never a victim. Somebody put his hands on me, I landed one right on his button. Settled things nicely.
And if I had anything to say about it (and I don’t-- only administrators can do this), I’ve vote to suspend your ass.
For defending myself. Gotcha. So much for that wise judgment you mentioned previously that takes circumstance into account.
Q.E.D.
You said you hit first. Too bad for you, that’s how it fucking works.
Muffin, QED what? You hit first, you get suspended. End of story. I’m sure if it was your or yours on the receiving end of that punch, you’d want the same. Absolute lack of perspective on your part is the only thing preventing you from seeing logic.
I’m so glad you’re not in charge of discipline at my school. You would take the word of someone that he was the victim just because he told you so, huh? Fucking ridiculous.