Just a random thought - Certainly Lesbians, Gay men, Bisexuals, and Transgendered people have a lot of the same issues and problems in common. However, anyone who has a friend/relative who is a gay man, for example, knows that gay men are quite different culturally in many ways than lesbian women. And do gay people of both genders have much in common with transgendered people or bisexual people, anyway? This thread might just be in the wrong place, and it might, in fact, sputter and die, but I really am curious. Do all of these different groups really want to be lumped together? Do you think that they might resent being lumped together (and having their specific wants and needs being unaddressed because they have to compromise)
It certainly has come up once or twice. I know there have been discussions about the fact that the struggle for gay marriage is essentially a middle-class (and to some extent white) struggle. When your goal is to survive, getting equal rights with straights is not really on the radar.
I would prefer that the push for transgendered rights be separate from LGB, but understand why it has gotten lumped together to some degree. While there are some similarities, the transgendered really do have entirely different issues. There is some overlap, such as a FtM who is attracted to males would fall under the gay umbrella, but an FtM who is attracted to females would be straight.
Yes, it adds some strength in numbers to put us all together since we are small minorities alone but it also dilutes our effectiveness by trying to cover the issues of a larger number of issues. See the fight to have ENDA passed for an example of that.
As Antinor01 suggests, the addition of the T to LGB is the most controversial aspect of the grouping. Many Ts and T-supporters want the political movement to encompass rights for the transgendered because they see discrimination against them as coming from the same place as discrimination against the others in the movement, and because they’re much more likely to succeed that way. However, changes to protect the transgendered are much harder to enact, so many in the gay community want the movement to focus just on sexual orientation. Others view this as a sort of Devil’s bargain that HRC and similar groups are all-too-willing to make.
This issue is closely related to so-called intersectionality (bad post-modern writing alert), a common issue in civil rights struggles. The racial justice movement began to encounter this issue in the late 60’s as a struggle between the interests of lower middle class blacks and poor blacks. Feminism encountered this when the issues facing white women were very different from those facing black women. And, as the OP suggests, this occurs within the LGBT movement as between wealthy LGBTs and poor LGBTs.
This. Culturally speaking, as a bi FtM, I have much more in common with the bi community than the (largely) straight FtM community. I don’t think the cultural factors that lump us all together should be wholly dismissed, however; it is there, and it does promote a common culture of permissiveness, and of community, IME. But I’d agree that they all have their own cultural aspects. I’ve had conversations with bi friends about how “gay” and “straight” are in a lot of ways more similar than bisexual to either one. There’s a degree of resentment I’ve definitely felt, especially towards bi folk, on behalf of the LG side of the spectrum.
I know transwomen have their problems with the womyn-born-womyn feminists, some of whom, naturally, are lesbians, as some folk of every stripe are (really, doesn’t that “y” make your eyes bleed?), but I can only really speak of my experience, and that’s what I’ve noticed.
I’ve also heard the acronym LBGTQ, adding “questioning.”
We are lumped together for the simple reason that we have common enemies. People who have trouble understanding one of us tend to have trouble understanding all of us. And people who hate one of us tend to hate all of us.
Prior to the AIDS crisis and the rise of religious fundamentalism, gay men and lesbians really didn’t have much to do with each other. Gay men were busy exploring and defining our own subculture, and lesbians were very involved in the women’s movement, some to the point of separatism. Then since the 80s we’ve had to come together for our very survival, and at least in that respect it’s been a good thing.
I dunno about that… not too many of us male-born-males amongst them, as far as I can tell…
Actually as long as I’m in this thread, I have a relevant question.
If one were Questioning, not in the straight/bi/gay continuum way but in the maybe-TS way, where would one be best off turning for collective support and acceptance? I know someone who has gone to some LGBT organization meeting / events but everyone assumes “L” and she hasn’t said “T” and isn’t sure she’d be comfortable coming out (especially insofar as she isn’t sure). I’ve sort of encouraged her to do so and said folks would most likely be understanding and supportive, but do you think that’s accurate? If not, is there a better & more supportive environment? Oh, the general venue is Atlanta GA by the way.
Thanks for the different perspectives! I definitely agree with the idea that many of these members have the same enemy, and are encountering similar prejudices. I’m also going to throw this idea on the table - I would venture a guess that many people would accept gay men more readily than, say…lesbians, for example. That’s not a scientifically based belief. Just what I’ve noticed from coworkers, etc. (You know - like in romantic comedies where every female character has a gay best friend? Certainly this sentence couldn’t be easily changed to a lesbian best friend, or a transgendered friend.) I think therefore, that this collective group benefits some of its members more than others. Less accepted components might find it beneficial, but gay men may make more headway, for example, if they were campaigning alone. My opinion. Maybe you agree, maybe not.
One area where there is a surprising (to me at least) lack of flexibility in gender identity is a fairly hardcore attitude among some women, especially gay women, that MtF transgendered people are not women, and that only biologically born women can really be women. Some are fairly hardcore in making this distinction.
It is also claimed by some women that when gay men and gay women try to organize something that the gay men tend to try and take the lead and, regardless of being gay, have a much more hierarchical male attitude in organizing group dynamics, which is quite difference from the way women organize which is more collaborationist. This can sometimes cause friction.
My impression was that the Q stood for ‘queer,’ as in not feeling like one fits into any of the usual categories. Is this not so?
It can. That’s why there’s also LGBTQQ. It covers both.
Does she think she’s really a man? In that case, she should seek out trans men around her own age, which exist in Atlanta. Lesbians can be supportive, but are going to be likely to try to talk her out of transition. Trans men could help her, while not necessarily pushing her to transition, but let know her options and make up her own mind. If she’s under 35 or so, trueselves.com would be a good forum I know of to join to talk to other people in her situation.
For Gay Pride Festivals, I think it is fair and OK to lump the groups together. For political and social issues, this not only makes sense, it is quite practical and helps unify the groups to give them some political and social clout.
However, I didn’t make any friends when years ago I complained (quite loudly) to the staff at The Advocate when they went from being an all-male Gay magazine, to the more politically correct Gay/Lesbian magazine, and then the even more all-inclusive LGBT.
I personally felt that the content was diminished by including the other groups.
It is not that I don’t care about LBT, but the original magazine was simply focused on Gay men, as was almost the entire subscription base of The Advocate at the time.
I further pissed off many on the staff when, about a year or so later, I asked how those subscription rates with Lesbians had turned out. I knew from someone in marketing that they were dismal - but the editorial staff stuck to their position.
I just feel there are certain situations that don’t require lumping everyone in the same group. For instance, many Gay leather bars are not all that eager to have some guy bring his sister to the bars, no matter how enlightened she may be. The same goes for Lesbian bars - many are not thrilled to have women bring their brothers for the same reason.
My own brother, when visiting me in West Hollywood, went with me and my SO to a few local Gay bars. He seemed disappointed that the bars were not 50/50 Gay and Lesbian. As a straight guy, he would have enjoyed that aspect. I told him that although there were some political and social issues that Gays and Lesbians had in common, hanging out at the same bar was not in anyone’s interest. Granted, in small towns with fewer options (1 bar in 500 miles), this is not such a big deal and becomes the defacto norm. But if people had their druthers, in larger urban areas, Lesbians prefer to be around just Lesbians and Gay guys around other just Gay guys - especially when cruising on a Friday/Saturday night.
So, I know I have rambled a bit, and could write volumes, but the crux of my answer is: as a political group, yes - all inclusive is a great idea and concept and there are many areas of mutual interest. However, in certain situations, the groups have far less interest in interacting with one another - and that should be considered OK as well, without having to worry about being politically incorrect.
I’ve noted, travelling overseas, that the level of interaction between the groups varies considerably. My experience in London is that the groups are pretty closely aligned - gay men and women mingle frequently and certainly feel a shared bond. Not every club is going to be 50/50 split, certainly, but there isn’t a harsh divide either. AHunter3 asked upthread if their T friend could find support in a LBGT meeting and my initial reaction was ‘of course!’ but could that be the culture of my location?
My feeling living here is that the LGBT community does feel close and accepting of all, but I realise that isn’t going to be the case everywhere. And of course, there will always be people on the fringes of each group that doesn’t share that (men-hating womyn being a prime example). I was surprised to read 2ply’s comment about lesbians trying to talk someone out of transition - that wouldn’t be my experience at all.
This is probably a debate for another thread, but for the record I agree with you. I think the chief problem is exposure - and this is true for the trans and bisexual communities also. LGBT bars, organisations and spokespeople are dominated by men. Hey, somethings never change! 
She doesn’t know how to find a support group composed of trans men. And she isn’t sure. Being not sure is kinda disconcerting, and reciprocally some people who are of an exceptional identity are concerned enough with their own privacy & confidentiality issues that they don’t want interlopers poking their noses in if they aren’t sure “this” is indeed who they are. So she’s wary of declaring herself to be a trans man and contacting others in some fashion unless it’s an environment that’s officially open to (or “about”) exploring whether you are or aren’t.
ETA: honesty, my personal take on it is that she’s more genderqueer than trans. Less “is a man” than “is not a woman” if you know what I mean.
I’ve noticed this, too, in the UK (at least versus the US and Canada). Also, that there seem to be more straight male/lesbian female friendships. It also seems to be more the case when they get older– 20-something gay guys and women I know seem to go through a period where they’re practically in quarantine.
Yes, I’m sure the lesbians would have been delighted to make his visit more enjoyable for him by fueling his “porn lesbian” fantasies.