Liberal Christians: Genealogies in the Bible?

[JohnClay]

I initially asked this in Christians: Why are scientists more likely to be non-believers?

Since I didn’t seem to get any replies from Christians and since that thread is full up of non-Christian arguments I thought I’d create its own thread here.

Books like the Song of Solomon and prophecy books involve a lot of metaphors. I think that Genesis isn’t a book of poetry like liberal Christians say it is - in particular the beginning of the book. If it is a book of poetry, what about the genealogies:

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 5 - New International Version

This is the written account of Adam’s family line.

When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind”[a] when they were created.

3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

6 When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father** of Enosh. 7 After he became the father of Enosh, Seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters. 8 Altogether, Seth lived a total of 912 years, and then he died.

9 When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan. 10 After he became the father of Kenan, Enosh lived 815 years and had other sons and daughters. 11 Altogether, Enosh lived a total of 905 years, and then he died.

12 When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel. 13 After he became the father of Mahalalel, Kenan lived 840 years and had other sons and daughters. 14 Altogether, Kenan lived a total of 910 years, and then he died.

15 When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared. 16 After he became the father of Jared, Mahalalel lived 830 years and had other sons and daughters. 17 Altogether, Mahalalel lived a total of 895 years, and then he died.

18 When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch. 19 After he became the father of Enoch, Jared lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 20 Altogether, Jared lived a total of 962 years, and then he died.

21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

25 When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech. 26 After he became the father of Lamech, Methuselah lived 782 years and had other sons and daughters. 27 Altogether, Methuselah lived a total of 969 years, and then he died.

28 When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. 29 He named him Noah[c] and said, “He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the Lord has cursed.” 30 After Noah was born, Lamech lived 595 years and had other sons and daughters. 31 Altogether, Lamech lived a total of 777 years, and then he died.

32 After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth.

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 6:3 - New International Version

Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with[a] humans forever, for they are mortal**; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 11 - New International Version

10 This is the account of Shem’s family line.

Two years after the flood, when Shem was 100 years old, he became the father[d] of Arphaxad. 11 And after he became the father of Arphaxad, Shem lived 500 years and had other sons and daughters.

12 When Arphaxad had lived 35 years, he became the father of Shelah. 13 And after he became the father of Shelah, Arphaxad lived 403 years and had other sons and daughters.[e]

14 When Shelah had lived 30 years, he became the father of Eber. 15 And after he became the father of Eber, Shelah lived 403 years and had other sons and daughters.

16 When Eber had lived 34 years, he became the father of Peleg. 17 And after he became the father of Peleg, Eber lived 430 years and had other sons and daughters.

18 When Peleg had lived 30 years, he became the father of Reu. 19 And after he became the father of Reu, Peleg lived 209 years and had other sons and daughters.

20 When Reu had lived 32 years, he became the father of Serug. 21 And after he became the father of Serug, Reu lived 207 years and had other sons and daughters.

22 When Serug had lived 30 years, he became the father of Nahor. 23 And after he became the father of Nahor, Serug lived 200 years and had other sons and daughters.

24 When Nahor had lived 29 years, he became the father of Terah. 25 And after he became the father of Terah, Nahor lived 119 years and had other sons and daughters.

26 After Terah had lived 70 years, he became the father of Abram, Nahor and Haran.

Abram’s Family

27 This is the account of Terah’s family line.

Terah became the father of Abram, Nahor and Haran. And Haran became the father of Lot. 28 While his father Terah was still alive, Haran died in Ur of the Chaldeans, in the land of his birth. 29 Abram and Nahor both married. The name of Abram’s wife was Sarai, and the name of Nahor’s wife was Milkah; she was the daughter of Haran, the father of both Milkah and Iskah. 30 Now Sarai was childless because she was not able to conceive.

31 Terah took his son Abram, his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, the wife of his son Abram, and together they set out from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to Canaan. But when they came to Harran, they settled there.

32 Terah lived 205 years, and he died in Harran.

What on earth is that about? Is that poetry or metaphors?

“their days will be a hundred and twenty years”

Well that is about the maximum age that humans live… maybe it is talking about the maximum age of humans rather than being some kind of poetry!

What do all of the numbers mean? Do they have some mystical numerological meaning? Do those numbers paint some kind of beautiful poetic picture?

I really want to know.

BTW those genealogies are repeated in Luke 3… it suggests that those people were real ancestors of Jesus rather than just characters in a poem.

[dropzone]

Luke copied the list. He was not an independent source. As for the poetry, I prefer,
*
As I was going to St Ives
I met a man with seven wives
And every wife had seven sacks
And every sack had seven cats
And every cat had seven kits
Kits, cats, sacks, wives
How many were going to St Ives?*

because it’s a riddle that I gloated over answering (wrongly) because I had just learned my Sevens.

[JohnClay]

So are you saying that the genealogies are just poetry? Did those people actually exist? Did they live to those ages? If not, why did the “poem” include such non-poetic numbers? (Well 777 is a bit poetic)

[Der_Trihs]

@JohnClay

I initially asked this in Christians: Why are scientists more likely to be non-believers?

Since I didn’t seem to get any replies from Christians and since that thread is full up of non-Christian arguments I thought I’d create its own thread here.

While I’m not one, quite a few Christians did post in that thread. They just weren’t your particular variety of Christian.

[septimus]

Two comments.

(1) While the lifespans before Noah are absurdly long, I’ve read a theory that later time spans make some sense if you divide by two. For example, Moses is said to have lived till age 120 – he lived to 60. Supposedly, one ancient Semitic calendar counted equinoxes instead of years. The theory is probably crackpottery, but I lack the expertise to judge. (I don’t want to hijack this thread but might send URL in response to PM.)

(2) Genesis 46 is genealogy – it lists Jacob’s wives (and mentions two other women by name), sons, grandsons and even some of his great grandsons. There is an interesting “logic puzzle” associated with an apparent arithmetic error in that Chapter. I’m told that some Jewish scholars are aware of the logic puzzle and have an answer. Will any experts comment? (I’ve wondered if that “logic puzzle” is interesting enough to start a SDMB thread – but I’d need a lot of encouragement to do so, since most of my threads fizzle.)

[JohnClay]

When I said “I didn’t seem to get any replies from Christians” I meant about whether the genealogies are a poem or whatever.

[JohnClay]

@septimus

Two comments.

(1) While the lifespans before Noah are absurdly long, I’ve read a theory that later time spans make some sense if you divide by two. For example, Moses is said to have lived till age 120 – he lived to 60. Supposedly, one ancient Semitic calendar counted equinoxes instead of years. The theory is probably crackpottery, but I lack the expertise to judge. (I don’t want to hijack this thread but might send URL in response to PM.)

So 950 years = 475 years? Also
“Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.””
implies that the maximum lifespan would then be 60 years.
edit: I see you were talking about the later time spans… but the earlier ones can’t be ignored… I’d like to see the URL - after all the source would be from a liberal Christian.

(2) Genesis 46 is genealogy – it lists Jacob’s wives (and mentions two other women by name), sons, grandsons and even some of his great grandsons. There is an interesting “logic puzzle” associated with an apparent arithmetic error in that Chapter. I’m told that some Jewish scholars are aware of the logic puzzle and have an answer. Will any experts comment? (I’ve wondered if that “logic puzzle” is interesting enough to start a SDMB thread – but I’d need a lot of encouragement to do so, since most of my threads fizzle.)

BTW there seems to be differences in the numbers in Genesis 5 amongst different texts:

Genealogies of Genesis

[aNewLeaf]

It’s the records of a breeding program conducted by space aliens.

Or not.

[tomndebb]

The genealogies are not “poems,” (as far as I am aware). However, they are myth. Based on the concept that a long life was indicative of God’s blessing, one will note that they trend downward with only a few exceptions.

Name	Age at birth of son	Years lived 		Age at death
				after birth of son
Adam		130		800			930
Seth		105		807			912
Enosh		90		815			905
Kenan		70		840			910
Mahalel		65		830			895
Jared		162		800			962
Enoch		65		300			365
Methusaleh	187		762			969
Lamech		182		595			777
Noah		500+		450?			950
Shem		100		500			600
Arpachshad	35		403			438
Shelah		30		403			433
Eber		34		430			464
Peleg		30		209			239
Reu		32		207			239
Serug		30		200			230
Nahor		29		119			148
Terah		70		130			205
Abram		100		75			175 

Age at death does not directly reflect on how good an individual might have been, but demonstrates the sinfulness of humanity. This is not a lot different than the Greek tales that showed different “ages” of men being made up of successively more base metals, beginning with gold, until it finally deteriorated into mere flesh and blood.

[njtt]

It is myth. Myth does not have to be represented in beautiful poetry, although it quite often is. Not every fact mentioned in myth has to be false, but most are. Sometimes clumsy attempts at verisimilitude get mixed in with literally absurd (but possibly symbolic) elements. It is not uncommon for the people who write down myths to get caught up in tedious listings and spuriously precise details, which they may or may not have themselves believed to be mundanely factual. None of this says anything about the overall truth of the texts or anyof tehparticular details. Obvius falsities ae all mixed up with the possibly true, and sometimes with the outright dull.

[Askthepizzaguy]

@dropzone

Luke copied the list. He was not an independent source. As for the poetry, I prefer,
*
As I was going to St Ives
I met a man with seven wives
And every wife had seven sacks
And every sack had seven cats
And every cat had seven kits
Kits, cats, sacks, wives
How many were going to St Ives?*

because it’s a riddle that I gloated over answering (wrongly) because I had just learned my Sevens.

I might be wrong, but from the poem, the only one that is clearly going to St Ives is the person relating the information. He simply met the others on the way.

So, at least one conclusively, but the others are unknown if they’re even going anywhere.

[JohnClay]

@tomndebb

…Based on the concept that a long life was indicative of God’s blessing, one will note that they trend downward with only a few exceptions.

Actually it remained quite constant before the Flood and then declined after that:
http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/life-span-of-bible-patriarchs-before-after-the-flood.jpg

Age at death does not directly reflect on how good an individual might have been, but demonstrates the sinfulness of humanity.

Actually right before the Flood mainly just Noah was “good”… many of the others were wicked.

I can’t find a link at the moment but there is a Creationist belief that before the Flood there was a vapor canopy that held the Flood waters and also filtered out a lot of radiation. Initially people had perfect DNA and were able to have children with their siblings. After the Flood people’s DNA accumulated mutations and their lifespans declined. Also in Exodus it said that people can no longer marry their siblings perhaps due to them having identical mutations causing their children to be more likely to be mutated.

[JohnClay]

@njtt

It is myth…

Are the genealogies in Luke 3 also a myth? If so how can you be sure that Mary was a virgin, etc? Or maybe you don’t believe in the virgin birth, etc. Why are there myths in the Bible? What’s the point of the scholars rewriting out all of those ages, etc, if they’re just myths?

[Kable]

What I have never understood is how liberal Christians can readily admit they have a book of myth/fiction and then accept a particular miracle story contained therein as the gospel truth, so to speak.

[Inner_Stickler]

@JohnClay

Are the genealogies in Luke 3 also a myth? If so how can you be sure that Mary was a virgin, etc? Or maybe you don’t believe in the virgin birth, etc. Why are there myths in the Bible? What’s the point of the scholars rewriting out all of those ages, etc, if they’re just myths?

Yes. Parthenogenesis is, uh, pretty rare in humans. Because the people who wrote them down considered them to have great religious or cultural importance.

That was easy.

[Little_Nemo]

Couple of interesting trivia notes if you work out the timeline.

*Noah is the first named descendant of Adam who was born after Adam’s death.
*Methuselah died the year of the flood.
*Noah was still alive for a good portion of Abraham’s lifetime. Abraham (still known as Abram) was fifty-eight when his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather Noah died.

[JohnClay]

@Little_Nemo

Couple of interesting trivia notes if you work out the timeline.

*Noah is the first named descendant of Adam who was born after Adam’s death.
*Methuselah died the year of the flood.
*Noah was still alive for a good portion of Abraham’s lifetime. Abraham (still known as Abram) was fifty-eight when his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather Noah died.

Interesting…

I assumed that some people might have lived through the Flood but they didn’t… it explains why Lamech only lived to 777 rather than 900+ like everyone else before the Flood.

[Little_Nemo]

@JohnClay

Interesting…

http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/bible/bible/OT/Law/Genesis/Patriarchal%20Timeline%20From%20Adam%20Through%20Isaac.jpg

The chart tries to shrug off a discrepancy in the Bible. Genesis says that Shelah is the son of Arphaxad but Luke says Shelah is the son of Cainan and Cainan is the son of Arphaxad.

@JohnClay

I assumed that some people might have lived through the Flood but they didn’t… it explains why Lamech only lived to 777 rather than 900+ like everyone else before the Flood.

Actually Lamech is reported to have died five years before the flood.

If you’re looking for a metaphor, you can say that times began to go bad when Adam died and people no longer had direct access to somebody who had personally been present at the creation. And Methuselah was presumably the last living person who had known Adam - so when he was gone mankind became more distant from the creation because now we didn’t have anyone who had heard the story second hand from Adam. Noah and all the rest of us got our information third hand. So people began taking the whole God story less seriously now that the eyewitnesses were gone and God ended up killing everyone with the flood.

The flood presumably put … well … the fear of God back into people. I imagine when little Abram was growing up he heard the stories from old Noah about how three hundred years ago God had killed everyone on Earth except for their family.

[JohnClay]

@Little_Nemo

…If you’re looking for a metaphor,

I’m looking for serious replies from liberal Christians.

…you can say that times began to go bad when Adam died and people no longer had direct access to somebody who had personally been present at the creation.

No I think the best pattern is whether they lived before the Flood (lived to about 900 years except for Lamech) or after the Flood - after the Flood there was a fairly constant decline in their ages.
http://www.biblestudy.org/maps/life-span-of-bible-patriarchs-before-after-the-flood.jpg
Also there was that verse about lifespans being limited to 120.

…And Methuselah was presumably the last living person who had known Adam…

Though Methuselah lived to be the oldest age, Noah still was one of the oldest people in the genealogy (950 years) He lived to only 19 years less than Methuselah.

[Little_Nemo]

@JohnClay

I’m looking for serious replies from liberal Christians.

Well, I can’t help you there.