Liberal equivalent of idealogy over practicality

Real experts being anyone who agrees with you of course :smiley:

Professor Zuckerman is very familiar with the evidence.

I also, suspect you’d find “real experts” on Clinton’s President’s Council on Sustainable Development. And one of the goals recommended was to Move toward stabilization of U.S. population.

Given that population growth in the US is largely driven by immigration levels the practical policy response is to reduce immigration. That conflicts with liberal ideology, including yours apparently. :slight_smile:

Actually many experts out there even agree that the ones you follow are nutty.

And he is out now, so, so much for that.

About that, you never came back on a previous discussion to deal with what I posted: the actual final report and there was no reference about preventing immigration but talks about** building a multicultural society** while dealing with the issue, once again, family planing, education and fighting poverty for all were the keys.

http://clinton2.nara.gov/PCSD/Publications/tsa.pdf

You know, if you do want to show all that your points could be respected to begin with you should had been aware already for years that your information was not the latest one.

Incidentally, looking at the subject at hand, I know that only a fringe of a fringe of the conservatives would think that your points are anywhere near being practical.

No. Clearly not. That’s just useless noise.

You really don’t think that some US atheists go overboard in the pursuit of the separation of church and state? If you knew civil unions for gays could be made law in most states next year, but that same sex marriages might take ten or more, would it be smart or stupid to hold out of the latter?

Should have addressed GIGOBuster: No, the IMO the idea that the US could successfully adopt pacifism is unlikely.

Easy. I bet that they’ve been burned by “energy efficient” or “environmentally friendly” or “Green” products in the past that don’t work as well as the conventional equivalents, which would be the majority of them.

In the case of lights, they’re probably thinking they’re the lights that take forever to come on, or that don’t put out enough light.

Think of what a huge stink ensued with the first round of low-flow toilets- people refused to buy them for a long time because they underperformed so badly.

The environmentally friendly removal of phosphates from dishwasher detergent produced a bunch of detergents that were notably inferior to their phosphate containing predecessors.

That sort of thing is why I suspect that to a lot of these people “environmentally friendly” is a sort of code-word for “inferior performance”. More liberal people value the environmental friendliness over the performance, and that’s why you see a divide there- moderate and conservative people value performance more.

In all likelihood, it’s not some weird knee-jerk “Can’t let those libruls make me use no enviro bulb!” type thing. Which on reading more, is what Debaser is saying.

How does that relate to the topic, though? Would they somehow better achieve something else they wanted if they weren’t doing that?

This question is plainly not relevant anymore. It was an interesting thought experimental a decade ago, maybe. What you can see at this point is that the states that supported civil unions are the same ones that support gay marriage. After all, they’re extremely similar and one was intended as a step toward the other anyway. I don’t think there’s a single state that would have said no to gay marriage and yes to civil unions - I guess New Jersey counts for now because of Christie, or Christie’s national ambitions.

I don’t know if the cliché fits, but I would think something like that is more along the lines of “cutting off your nose to spite your face.”

puts on tinfoil hat
Damned if those libruls are going to tell me what is good for me! I’m going to buy a car that rides like a buckboard, costs me $100 to fill up, and only goes 200 miles between fill-ups; that’ll show 'em!
takes off tinfoil hat

Yea, I’m pretty sure that cutting off your nose to spite your face is an appropriate cliché here.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that was kind of my point. I think the issues you’re listing might be categorized as “cases in which someone arguably acts in a non-strategic manner.” That’s not what the OP is talking about, though: the OP is talking about cases in which someone lets their distaste for the connotations of one word influence their behavior, when they would not be similarly influenced by synonyms of that word.

In every post you make that requires you to admit a failing on the left, you inject the fact that the right does it too. Only you guys are much worse and look at all these links I’m going to show you, just so you know that yeah we may have been wrong but look how wrong you are too!

Man up, accept your sides responsibility and move the fuck on.

It’s actually becoming comical.

Knock it off or take it to the Pit.

Nope, I already reported what I think, so I already accepted the **proportional **responsibility the left has. The real world in this case shows that we can not make an absolute left-right division, when NIMBY enters the picture both the left and the right fall as the followers of ignorance.

Unless you want to deny what the polls say, so I have to say that I’m sorry that this item does not work as well to apply as a wide brush to the left as you thought it did, me, I deal with the ignorants from the left or the right on a case by case basis, but clearly on the GMO issue there are many from the right and the left that are ignorant and many scientists that are from the left (Paul Nurse is a socialist BTW) that are staunch defenders.

Yes, which rather proves my point this is an example of liberal ideology trumping practicality. Again:

  1. One of the goals of the President’s Council on Sustainable Development goals recommended was to Move toward stabilization of U.S. population.

  2. The US population is growing largely due to immigration levels.

  3. The practical environmental response would be to adjust immigration levels to avoid population growth. Indeed, that was previously the Sierra Club’s position before it was trumped by liberal universalist ideology.

Yes. For example, the attempt by some atheists to get “under God” removed from the Pledge of Allegiance back in 2003 was a waste of time and led directly partly to reactionary stances on the part of legislators and ordinary citizens. The groups that challenged the wording in court would have done better doing nothing. Same with the atheists who tried to get a cross removed from a memorial site for the WTC. As an atheist, I wish they’d shut up, because they do no good.

I like Wendy Kaminer’s distinction between ceremonial deism and publicly funded displays or official sectarian prayers at public events. Challenging the use of the motto “In God We Trust” on US currency has been tried before, removing it won’t happen, and even if it did it will just cost money to issue new currency without the “offending” nonsense.

Nope, not practical as the latest developments in immigration reform show. And once again, many Republicans support the change now so be content with the still fringe opinion points, as that is what it amounts to. The practical point still remains as the last report that you attempted to use as a wedge issue does really say, and it is that we all have to control the population of the country and the planet as a whole.

The latest developments in immigration reform show how politics works and the ethnocentrism of Hispanic voters.

In any case, the issue of whether it’s practical or not to amnesty existing people in the US is one thing. However, population stablization involves future levels of immigration. How is reducing the level of legal immigration each year not practical? Isn’t greater enforcement a feature of the current legislation being proposed? You simply need to say the limit should be lowered to achieve the goal of population stablization.

It will not work, your position here is still coming from a fringe of a fringe. More so now. So good luck on preventing even more loss of support, we already know that most of the conservatives I respect here are not willing to support what you are trying to push here and elsewhere.

Yes, I remember the Senate passed a meaningless resolution in support of the “under God” wording and the Supreme court didn’t rule on the argument itself for reasons of standing. Did anything that mattered actually happen? Anything that wasn’t already the case? I realize it got some negative PR, but I think most of that came from people who think atheists are the tools of Satan anyway. It doesn’t matter much to me if those people get angry.

I don’t think they’re accomplishing much, and some of those protests are dumb. But I don’t think they’re hurting anybody either.

I’m not familiar - but it probably wouldn’t matter. I think ceremonial deism is a very bad copout.

It’s a matter of practicality. How is ceremonial deism a “very bad” cop out, and who is copping out? I was referring to the toleration of existing ceremonial deism in places where it costs nothing and provides a sop to the theist majority. I’m not advocating, nor, surely, is Kaminer that more instances be adopted.

A practical aspect you’re overlooking is the cost of court cases. Some of the cases brought by atheist groups strike me as trivial.

The courts are copping out by refusing to uphold a plain reading of the law and their own case law. Ceremonial deism is basically ‘the First Amendment says Congress shall make no law establishing a state religion… but if they do a little of it it’s OK.’ We should probably drop this, but it just isn’t the kind of thing the OP is asking about. Liberals aren’t rejecting something more practical in support of this; there have to be more religious liberals than atheist liberals anyway.

Who cares? The plaintiffs are spending their own money. I’m sure there’s a theoretical cost to the court’s time, but if the courts didn’t think the cases were worth taking they wouldn’t accept them in the first place.

:confused: This would appear to be what you are talking about – but not what you are describing.