I agree with your assessment of the Democrat/Republican schism, or lack therof. And you’re right on with the comment about this being an academic exercise. If fact, that’s my intention. I can’t solve the world’s problems, but I think I can solve my own by learning a little. One of my problems is that I tend to sterotype (BAD liberal!) Conservative/Republican/Right-wing types. Whatever the state of U.S. politics with the centrist(?) Democrats and the ultra-lieberal Green Party, there will always be at least two ends of the political spectrum. Since we’re most familiar with the Conservative/Liberal designation, I thought that would be an easy one for people to chime in on. My goal is to find some common ground with a group that I have too often thought of as a foe.
And if anyone reads these posts and starts to think that the “other side” ain’t all bad, well that’s pure frosting.
Conservatives believe that ALL the evils of the world have been caused by “those damned liberals.”
Conservatives believe in personal choice, and that government should stay out of our personal lives, except in those case where what other people want to do with their lives offends the conservative or in some other way goes against what the conservative believes is “right”. In other words, conservatives believe in money and in the free market, so they don’t want the government telling them what they can do with their money, or interfering in the free market; business owners clearly have the right to make their own personal decisions about who they hire or not, and the government has no right interfering with that personal choice. On the other hand, conservatives believe that abortion is wrong so it’s totally proper for the government to remove the ability for an individual to make her own personal choice about it; conservatives believe that homosexuality is a moral outrage, so it’s perfectly proper for there to be laws forbidding two men to choose to enter into the legal contract called “marriage”. Etc.
Conservatives have a burning need to label their opposition, to fit everyone and every believe into nice, neat little boxes.
Extreme conservatives believe that everyone is either conserative or liberal, period. I was listening to some conservative radio talk show host a while back (sorry, don’t remember which one, but not Rush) and a caller said that he had some views that would be called conservative and some that would be called liberal, so what did that make him? The host adamantly said that that made him confused.
For the record, I’m one of those “confused” people who’s belief system cannot be simplistically summed up in one word.
First off I am a liberal, and I don’t know about the differences between liberals and conservatives but I heard a great description of the differences between rebels and liberals (don’t remember where, sorry).
A rebel is someone who suffers under a inequeal/unjust/oppressive system and fights to change that system.
A liberal is someone who benefits from an inequeal/unjust/oppressive system and tells everyone else that they are bad for doing the same.
This unfortunately describes me to a T. I am just one hypocritical step away from having an environmental sticker on my gas guzzling CAR. Or one of those Kill Your Televison stickers, while I own a TV.
To be a liberal means that when forming your opinions on social decisions, you place the most value on what will keep society as a whole healthier and more productive, with more emphasis on a long-term view of the results of every action.
Politically, many liberals are far too willing to sell out certain groups if they think that they can get an advantage of some other issues or in public opinion that way (remember the Defense of Marriage Act). In the academic world, many liberals are obsessively focused on irrelevant issues, and they almost always misrepresent or exaggerate their opponentss positions. In general, liberals frequently pick issues or ideas that are designed to make them feel good, rather than to have a significant positive impact on society.
Many conservatives seem to be unable or unwilling to distinguish between fiction and reality, and to decide what they will accept as reality more based on what they want to accept than on what is actually true. The is most obvious in the case of the Religious Right, but also valid to a lesser extent for moderates as well. In particular, they are often unwilling to accept that one of their political leaders, media personalities, or business leaders has done something wrong or immoral even when the facts are obviously against them.
Conservatives are often seem to understand foreign policy better than liberals, and they frequently are more willing to certain programs based on a view of how society as changed in recent times (for example, affirmative action) while liberals in such cases are sometimes unwilling to admit that anything has changed in the last thirty years or so.
What does it mean to be liberal?
From my POV, liberals seem to care more about the world, while conservatives care more about the country.
Is there anything you don’t like about other liberals?
Like conservatives, when they get overzealous. Obsession with anything means doing without thought, and that into and of itself has lead the world into a hellstorm of problems.
What is your perception of conservatives?
Ironically enough, same as liberals: people who do what they think is right. I don’t have a stereotype of either group (although the media seems to want to ALWAYS relate liberals to peacenicks and conservatives to oil-drilling blowhards.
Is there anything you like about conservatives?
Again, that they do what they think is best.
Libertarian
That position sounds consistent to me. Keep the government as far away from people’s lives as possible. I never understood how, say, the conservatives are for limited Govt in fiscal issues, yet are intrusive socially, e.g., religious conservatives. (As an aside, this marriage of money and God has me puzzled… may be I’ll start a thread sometime!) Is it the * de facto * two party system that causes every issue to be placed in one of two bags watering down logical consistencies?
Yep. Plus, those two parties make all the laws, including the election laws. That’s why Libertarians need, say, 50,000 signatures each time they run in New York.
Since there likely won’t be a thread for libertarians, and since I’m “half-liberal”, I’ll just post my response here.
The difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals can’t keep their minds off my wallet and conservatives can’t keep their minds off my zipper.
On one level - the belief that things can and will be better, if we change them, as opposed to the belief that things are pretty good now, and change will bring more bad than good.
On another level, this is from a speech I heard when I was 10, in America, at least:
There’s a lot of divisiveness, and many times, unnecessary divisiveness, among liberals. Often by those so issue focused that they’ve lost sight of everything else.
Some mean really well. But those conservatives seem entirely out of touch with reality, especially with social issues.
From those conservatives, I’ll hear about things that people should be doing (or should not be doing), and whether or not they’re right - the deed has been done, the ship has sailed, the horse has left the barn and now, something has to be done about it.
The conservative view of many problems seems, at times, to be “well, if they hadn’t done _______ in the first place…” instead of dealing with the fact that they did or are doing it.
There are others who don’t mean well - they’re the scary ones, who want to force us back to some imaginary time and place where things were good for people like them at the expense of everyone else.
This could also go with question 2 - Personal responsibility is a good thing. There are some people (liberals and conservatives alike) that believe it must be either community responsibility or personal responsibility.
Over Thanksgiving, I was having a conversation with someone about drug laws and penalties. And while we both agreed that there were many, many, many things wrong with the system that should be fixed - she refused to accept that the people being penalized were at all to blame for their current situation.
Though I think that many times conservatives way overemphasize that kind of personal responsibility, I like the reminder that there is some there.
Liberals are concerned about the rights of everyone, especially those who cannot defend themselves, with the exception of the unborn. Liberals understand there is more to success than trying really, really hard and that with undeserved success comes a responsibility to share some of it. Liberals believe that all have a right to basic food, clothing and shelter. As stated above, like the Liberals, Jesus has a heart for the poor and the downtrodden. Liberals understand that the invisible hand, when allowed to run amok, does not magically help everyone. Liberals are compassionate. Liberals are hopeful. Liberals love capitalism but do not love some of its unfortunate unintended side effects. Liberals hold expert opinion in higher esteem than common sense.
What I do not like about liberals in the US is that they have been the opposition party for so long and lost the big battles so many times that they seem to have lost sight of the big picture and focus on niche issues in an effort to “win.” Many liberals, ironically perhaps, tend toward elitism in the sense that they do not believe the average Joe knows what’s best for himself.
I think the conservatives best serve the wealthy who are most interested in maintaining or expanding their own wealth. The conservatives believe that the underclass has no one but themselves (and the liberal government) to blame for their plight. The conservatives are more concerned with what will work than with what is true. Conservatives believe that everyone will be better off if business were allowed to run unfettered by government regulations. Conservatives do not seem to be much concerned with the environment. In the US, the conservatives seem to feel entitled to the White House.
I would not want to see the state of the economy if the liberals were in charge indefinitely. Those conservatives seem so sure of themselves. But then, it’s quite a bit easier to defend conservatism than liberalism in this country.
This is NOT the BBQ Pit, or even Great Debates. I expect this to be the last posting of this kind from anybody in an IMHO thread. If you cannot reply in a manner fitting for IMHO, do not post in IMHO, period.
This sums it up to me. We are all part of a society and we have the responsibility to help everyone else in that society. That doesn’t give us the right to tell anyone else how to live their lives.
There is a difference between people and money, and a difference between people and society. People should be able to do what they want, as long as they do not affect others. People can’t do everything they want where money is concerned because it is a function of society, and how they use it affects society. This is why we have taxes, and this is why there need to be a certain level of restrictions on how business can be conducted.
The free market is OK, but it needs some tweaking to make sure it doesn’t run amok.
People may stand or fall on their own merits, but they should have somewhere to fall to. It’s easier to get up that way.
Is there anything you don’t like about other liberals?
The association with certain wacky elements. Like astrology, incense and general hippyness. And occasionally we can become to distracted with sloganeering when we should be concentrating on doing something. The hippy thing again - “make love not war” is very good to say, but there comes a time when you need to start concentrating on bringing about a situation where people don’t want/need to make war.
What is your perception of conservatives?
Some conservatives are compassionate, some are intelligent (in that they understand the effect that their beliefs have), but they aren’t both. If they are compassionate, they can’t understand the effect their actions have, and if they understand the effect these beliefs have, they can not be compassionate.
They value money… wrongly. Money is important, but conservatives seem to value it over other things that are more important.
They seem to like rules too much.
Is there anything you like about conservatives?
About individual conservatives, yes. But as a group, I can’t really say that I do.
Oooh… I know. They make good jokes on The Simpsons:
“We need something that says we’re gay and republican”
(pink elephant floats through the room)
“A little on the nose don’t you think?”
Actually, there are The Simpsons definitions:
Republicans: We want what’s worst for everyone
We’re just plain evil!
Democrats: We hate life and ourselves!
We can’t govern!
Liberals will tax people who work and aren’t on drugs so they can create programs to help out the little kid whose mother is on crack and whose father doesn’t work or give a rat’s ass about his son.
Conservatives know that the little kid doesn’t have a chance in hell because his father doesn’t give a rat’s ass about him and his mother is on crack. Therefore they’d rather keep the money they make to spend on their own kid, who does have a chance.
Conservatives turn a blind eye to people who aren’t like them. They’re skeptical that social programs will change anything.
Liberals turn a blind eye to reality. They’ll keep trying to solve the problem without admitting that sometimes there’s nothing you can do.
Are we sure that only liberals are answering this thread? Man, if these are the other liberals, we’re even more self-loathing than I thought.
I think a good litmus test is to ask somebody which is more concerned with individual rights - liberals think of abortion, conservatives think of gun control.
What does it mean to be liberal?
To want change to make the world more fair.
Is there anything you don’t like about other liberals?
As a group, the inability to ‘market’ ideas in some sort of post-70’s way. The inability to communicate clear packages of ideas.
What is your perception of conservatives?
Conservatives I know think that they will be a beacon of hope because with their individual goodness, they will recognize the little urchin whose mother is dying and wants to buy her a pretty pair of shoes to meet Jesus, and the clerk at whatever store is actually going to turn him down because all he has is a dirty fist full of dirty pennies - they think they’re going to recognize that kid and be the hero and they don’t need the government to help.
They don’t realize that that kid doesn’t exist in real life - the kid that needs help smells like urine and acts tough and rude to you while you’re trying to get onto your train.
Is there anything you like about conservatives?
Their organizational skills.
And, somebody has to have the initiative to start ambitious business ideas, or the economy would never get anywhere.
I’ll post to this, though lately I haven’t felt like a very good liberal.
Soup said it perfectly. To care more about fairness than correctness. To care more about equality than efficiency. To believe that fiscal policy with an eye to social improvement is desirable and achievable.
Many liberals are ahistorical and eschew rational economic thinking. Their solutions are more often ideologically consistent than efficient.
I know that many of them are rational, good people with values very similar to my own, namely fairness, equality of opportunity, and personal responsibility. But they mystify me. I don’t know how they can mix comfortably with the religious right. For what it’s worth, I am sure they feel the same about me, sharing a party with the socialists and hippies.
See above. When they haven’t sold out to their own special interests, I highly value conservative fiscal responsibility, as well as many conservatives’ ability to see problems free of burdensome ideology.
What does it mean to be liberal?
The realization that the world isn’t a perfect place, that everyone doesn’t have the same opportunities, that everyone isn’t out for the common good, and because of that, the government needs to push a little here, pull a little there to ensure that the entire train doesn’t go off the rails.
Is there anything you don’t like about other liberals?
The tendency to blame business for everything and treat it as an unlimited source of funds. The inability to recognize that force is sometimes the correct option. The fact that the lunatic fringe (Chomsky et al) seems to be the most visible.
What is your perception of conservatives?
They have a mistaken belief that letting business run everything will make everything come out right. They have a mistaken belief that companies act in the interest of the country. They have a mistaken belief that force is nearly always the correct option. The conservativess put up with the rabid religious right rather than sending them back to the stone age where they belong.
Is there anything you like about conservatives?
There belief in personal responsibility. If everyone started off equal, it’d work.
That’s rich!