LIBERALS ONLY: What's the difference between a liberal and a conservative?

[MaxTheVool]

I’m somewhere between libertarian and liberal. And many of these questions have already been answered to my satisfaction.

In particular, the quotation about the farmer in Iowa, the retired school teacher, etc., is wonderful.

A few notes:

Things I dislike about my fellow liberals:
-The fact that we haven’t had a nationally visible liberal leader in years and years who was eloquent, moral, principled, and charismatic
-Crazy excesses of thought which are, for no obvious reason, called “liberal”, which result in incidents like this one:
https://www.newsmax.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/007447.html
(it was covered on an SDMB thread, but I can’t find it)
-Absolute beliefs about just about anything. “War is never the answer” and “All conservatives are xxxxx” being two good examples
-I’m no fan of unlimited welfare. On the other hand, I honestly don’t think most liberals are fans of unlimited welfare.
-Assaults on personal freedom

Things I dislike about conservatives:
-Michael Savage. I just want to shake him until he comes to his senses
-The religious right. Both their beliefs, and the fact that their beliefs seem to so define political debate in this country, one way or the other
-Absolute beliefs about just about anything. “Any gun control law at all, no matter how sensible, is EVIL EVIL EVIL” and “All liberals are xxxxxx” being two good examples
-An excess of trust in some combination of big business and the invisible hand, particularly on environmental and health/safety issues.
-A lack of empathy. Try growing up as a poor black kid in a crack neighborhood. (Not that I’m one to talk, of course)
-Jingoism
-Assaults on personal freedom

Things I like about conservatives:
-Many (most?) of them are hard working, intelligent, eloquent, compassionate people
-An emphasis on personal responsibility
-Patriotism
-Capitalism
-The ones who post on the SDMB, for the most part, rock
Things that were brought to my mind by this topic that I want to vent about:
-Liberals don’t like big government. No one likes big government. For that matter, no one but some fringe uberlibertarian anarchists want no government. If you found a competent and principled liberal and told him to rebuild the US government from scratch, it might have a budget of, say, $500 Billion. Whereas, a conservative might come up with a budge of, say, $300 Billion. Of course, the current US budget is something like $1700 Billion, of which between $300 and $500 billion is things that honest and principled people actually want, and the rest is bloat, inefficiency, pork barrel, stuff-that-was-useful-once, and so forth. And then the conservatives point at the $1700 billion budget and blame the liberals for it. And everyone basically buys it.

-Few things piss me off more than people who use the terms “liberal” or “conservative” as a one-word-says-it-all dismissal. “Liberals aren’t good patriots” “Conservatives are rich white people” “Liberals want big government” “Conservatives are racists” “Liberals are marxists” “Conservatives are in the pocket of big business” “Liberals have no idea how the real world works” “Conservatives killed Kenny! Those bastards!”. Etc. Such labels are rarely even close to comprehensively accurate, and even more rarely useful or productive for any purpose other than (to use a slightly-too-strong word) hatemongering. (Of course, you could argue that I myself have committed this very infraction many times over the course of this post. Ehh, bite me.)

[NaSultainne]

*Originally posted by Hey you! *
What does it mean to be liberal?

Sing it with me now…Freeeedom, freeedom, freee dum, freee dum, freee dum. Government picks up the check.

Is there anything you don’t like about other liberals?

They always seem to forget the flipside - responsibility.

What is your perception of conservatives?

They argue policy, not personality.

Is there anything you like about conservatives?

They live in the real world, look for real world solutions, and don’t quit because the U.S. hasn’t made the Utopia list yet. They’re not afraid to change policy if needed. They understand ‘evil’ is more than just a word.

[NaSultainne]

Oh, and of course I almost forgot that old cliche;

If you’re not a liberal at 20, you don’t have a heart.
If you’re not a conservative at 40, you don’t have a brain.

[I_am_Sparticus]

*Originally posted by Czarcasm *
**This is NOT the BBQ Pit, or even Great Debates. I expect this to be the last posting of this kind from anybody in an IMHO thread. If you cannot reply in a manner fitting for IMHO, do not post in IMHO, period. **

Description of the forum:

“What’s your favorite …?” For frank exchanges of views on less-than-cosmic topics. This is also the place for polling.
The poll asked the questions, and I answered them. I answered them straight, not sarcastically, but assuming the moderator’s name is not a violation of forum rules and sarcasm is allowed, even if it was sarcastic, were my answers really all that offensive? “Frank exchanges?” What exactly was wrong with my answers? They didn’t swear, they didn’t castigate any poster, they directly answered the question. Was I being a jerk? I don’t think so. It asked what liberals (and I am a liberal) truly think.

[Liberal]

Description of the BBQ Pit:

“If you gotta flame, do it here. This is the place for all complaints and other discussion regarding administration of the SDMB”

[gex_gex]

In the other thread, and even in this thread, I’ve noticed quite a number of people opining a sentiment expressed by Philster:

Liberals: the world should be this magical way.

Conservatives: the world IS THIS WAY, let’s deal with it

Whereas I’d always seen it as the other way round. Conservatives appear to be under the impression that we all get an equal chance at life, (some believe) that homosexuals choose their sexual preference and that all it takes to be a success is good old American gumption, all of which is just not true. Liberals on the other hand seem ready to accept that there aren’t always absolutes, not everyone gets an equal chance, and hence some people need a bit of a “leg up” (the aforementioned child of the crack mother), for instance.

Thoughts?

[gex_gex]

Oh, and from a link in the other thread, “Explaining Conservatisim To Your Squishy Liberal Friends”

Virtue is famously lonely. Also vice, as anyone can testify who ever told his mother, “All the other guys were doing it.” We experience pleasure separately; Ethan Hawke may go out on any number of wild dates, but I’m able to sleep through them. And, although we may be sorry for people who suffer, we only “feel their pain” when we’re full of baloney and running for office.

Such a typical conservative position which always seems to me to be saying: I don’t care about anyone else.

[Czarcasm]

I am Sparticus, looking forward to anyone’s death is not something I care to see at all, but since we already have a forum for those types of sentiments(i.e. the BBQ Pit), I see no reason why I should have to tolerate them at all in IMHO.
And I won’t.

[Achernar]

(I consider myself liberal, but I know nothing about economic issues. In this post I’m just talking about social issues, which in my opinion are much, much, much more important.)

Here’s my take on Liberalism. Over time, things in this country (USA), and probably overall in the world, become more liberal as time goes on. Think civil rights, gender issues, etc. There are probably some good counterexamples, but I can’t think of any. Liberals, then, try to promote this process, and conservatives try to hold it back. I’m not saying that because it happens that liberals are winning; it would probably happen much faster if liberals got their way. I think it’s also possible that every person has a given time that if they lived, they’d be more or less happy with the way things were. Like if I lived in 2300, I would be happy. For liberals, their time is in the future, and for conservatives, the past or present. This ties into the idea of liberalism being about change.

[Liberal]

The meanings of the terms “liberal” and “conservative” switched sometime around the Wilson administration. They almost started to do that again during the Clinton era.

[Blueapple]

A liberal promises you everything.

A conservative promises you everything and a tax cut.

rim shot

[I_am_Sparticus]

Well Czarcasm, then, you should put that in the rules that no one should mention that death is in any way something to look forward to. (At least we now know which opinion you found offensive.) I’ll take the rest of this to Great Debates. I respectfully submit that you are wrong about death being a bad thing.

[Czarcasm]

Try to convince them in Great Debates that your wishing conservatives to die was somehow to their benefit. When you refer back to the post in question you should get some interesting reactions.

[Stoid]

Well, first I’d like to say that I agree 100% with every single word that ** Giraffe ** wrote.
** Max, ** thank you re: Savage. I just got a load of him during a long drive to Las Vegas and I was absolutely appalled. What a colossal ass. . He makes Rush look reasonable.

On the other hand, I think it’s stretching it quite a bit to call most conservatives “intelligent” and “eloquent”, since conservatives, like liberals, come from every walk of life. Unless you are referring to “public” conservatives? Pundits and politicos? Or just the SDMB conservatives? (Because that would apply to the SDMB anythings, we are a pretty bright and articulate crew overall).

I also agree that the whole “fantasy/reality” idea should be switched. It’s magical thinking to believe that business will be environmentally responsible without being forced to. (See your history books) It’s magical thinking to believe that business will treat labor fairly without being forced to. (See your history books, and see the modern world outside this country. Note to my fellow liberals: do you check the labels on the things you buy before you buy them to find out what sort of exploitation you might be supporting when you enjoy those low, low prices?) It is magical thinking to believe that private charity will take care of the disadvantaged, uneducated, handicapped, etc. (See your history books.)

The most recent issue of Harpers has an outstanding and heartening essay by George McGovern on liberalism (and conservatism, and how the current Administration is completely blowing it).

I wont’ quote much, especially since I have to type it out. (Damn Harpers.org!)

**
I believe that many, if not most, Americans are liberals, too, or at least have some liberal impulses. There are, of course, those among us who are prepared to condemn without reservation liberalism and all of it’s works, but few of these people seem to grasp what liberalism actually * is. * Webster’s defines it as “A political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of man, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties.”
**

**
Virtually every step forward in our historyhas been a liberal initiative taken over conservative opposition: civil rights, Social Security, Medicare, rural electrificaation, the establishment of a minimum wage, collective bargaining, the Pure Food and Drug Act, and federal aid to education, including the land grant colleges. Here are a few more: guaranteed bank depositis, The Gederal Reserve, the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Food and Drug Administration, the National Park Service, the National School Lunch Program, the Voting Rights Act and the graduated income tax. Many of these innovations were eventually embraced by conservatives only after it became clear that they had overwhelming public approval for the simple reason that almost every American benefitted from them. Every one of these liberal efforts strengthened our democracy and our way of life. I challenge my conservative friends to name a single federal initiative now generally approved of by both of our major parties that was not first put forward by liberals over the opposition of conservatives…

… we cannot depend on convservatives to offer constructive new ideas of the sort that might bring about a more just and equitable society or a more peaceful and cooperative world.
**

**
With huge campaign war chests and clever propagandists, conservative political candidates in teh postwar years depicted their liberal opponents as weak on national defense, indifferent to family values, soft on communism, and captives of the welfare lobby, the gun controllers, and the abortionists.

This false and destructive approach has defeated many a Democratic liberal candidate and has, for the most part, kept true liberals out of power since 1969. As a result we have had more than our share of conservative leadership devoted to killing progressive programs while spending lavishly on the military and cutting taxes for the rich - a formula perfected during the Reagan years. Attempts to utilize the powers of government to improve the well-being of ordinary Americans have been shouted down in favor of policies serving only the commercial interests of the nation.
**

What does it mean to be liberal?
To me, it means asking “What is better, freer, safer, wiser for everyone?” instead of “What’s it gonna mean for me?”

Is there anything you don’t like about other liberals?

Excess. Not recognizing internal inconsistencies. Dishonesty in pursuit of one’s ideals. Example: allowing the desire for more compassionate, empathetic communication between people to devolve into Politically Correct Speech Police, which by its very nature tramples all over the right to free speech, and therfore undermines the entire foundation of what it means to be a liberal. It drives me insane.

I hate it when liberals are so over the top in any area that they effectively destroy any sympathy for their cause that they might otherwise have gained. A ready example of this would be some PETA actions and attitudes. I’m a strong and passionate believer in animal rights, but in a reasonable and pragmatic way, and I don’t think PETA does the movement any favors when it is destructive, harmful and unreasonable.

Of course, these charges could all apply to over the top conservatives as well. Being excessive, unreasonable, destructive and dishonest will always undermine whatever good you are otherwise trying to do.

I am also terribly unhappy with the flabby, shapeless, general gutlessness of the liberals in power. We need a strong, clear, confident voice.

What is your perception of conservatives?
Well first you have to make the distinction between professional conservatives and Regular Joes who vote conservative. I admit that I see little to admire in professional conservatives. They seem to come from an extremely negative place. Fear-based, angry, judgmental, and selfish. Not to mention horribly smug, which is irritating under any circumstance, but particularly so when it comes from people who are so terribly wrong.

As for Regular Joes that vote conservative? Some are great, some are horrible. And almost all very misguided.
Is there anything you like about conservatives?

Like? Kind of a strong word. I admire their cohesiveness, we could use a whole lot more of it. And of course, individual conservatives can be likable, although I admit I have very few among my friends. Not none, but few. I’m too politically passionate to be able to have an intimate and meaningful relationship with someone who has a worldview that is almost completely the opposite of my own.

I can love a conservative, tho. I sorta have no choice, since my father is one. He calls himself Libertarian, but I’ve noticed that most everyone who calls themselves Libertarian tend to vote the conservative half of themselves.

[jshore]

*Originally posted by litost *
Libertarian
That position sounds consistent to me. Keep the government as far away from people’s lives as possible. I never understood how, say, the conservatives are for limited Govt in fiscal issues, yet are intrusive socially, e.g., religious conservatives. (As an aside, this marriage of money and God has me puzzled… may be I’ll start a thread sometime!) Is it the * de facto * two party system that causes every issue to be placed in one of two bags watering down logical consistencies?

As a bit of a hijack, I would like to address this point: I personally think that libertarians win if we want to form a governmental system with logical consistency as the sole basis for choosing the best system. Libertarianism is nothing if not logically consistent.

The great problem I think with libertarianism is that it ignores the realities of the real world and one particularly important reality: If government relinquishes all control over the economic aspects of people’s lives, what ensues is not paradise. Rather, the vacuum of power and control is filled by the economically powerful. In other words, government is not the only coercive force in our society.

[As a side note, most libertarians don’t really seem to want to see government have no control over the economic realm…E.g., they don’t generally seem to question things like corporate law or patent law or other things that, perhaps not-so-coincidently, are useful to the economically powerful.]