Libertaria: a case study

True, Hoopy Frood, and that has been my standard response to criticisms of Libertaria: if we have resolved that people must lobby someone to get something done, why not lobby the businesses directly? If there is enough public support to rationalize the law, shouldn’t there be enough of an incentive for a business to simply do it voluntarily?

Not necessarily. All political action requires is that enough people don’t feel the opposite, yet they needn’t support it. In the case of expensive renovation, the ones in charge are clearly opposed to it, and it might not be possible to raise the issue to public awareness enough to make a significant dent in the economic behaviors of the citizenry.

Libertarian wrote:

Ah, Libertaria, the land of rugged individualists! And the less rugged among them be damned. What a charming little nation!

Geez, I opened this thread thinking a case study of a libertarian wossname was purportedly available.

Excuse my ignorance, but don’t case studies involve actual cases?

Aw, c’mon, spoke-. Lib’s answer to the giant squid - the apparent inevitability of nice, well-situated people rescuing the less fortunate of Libertaria - will be along any minute now, I’m sure.

Saved by the giant squid! :smiley:

Actually I think widespread (if not universal) handicapped access would be possible in a libertarian society. The first factor would be the desire for businesses to expand their customer base as wide as possible. Businesses that made handicapped access difficult would not only be losing handicapped customers, they would also face negative reactions from their friends and relatives and sympathetic strangers.

It’s sort of like diaper changing stations in men’s rooms. There was no goverment action mandating them but they are now in general use because businesses saw the commercial sense in providing them.

Then why did we need a law for it, Nemo?

Timeliness, for one thing.

Take airbags in cars, which are comparatively much cheaper than the sorts of changes required to make buildings, buses, etc. wheelchair-accessible. The automakers suddenly came around on them in the early 1990s, but they could have been mandated as early as the late 1970s at a low per-unit cost. If they had, probably tens of thousands of people would be living who are now dead, and hundreds of thousands would have escaped serious injury.

Given the greater cost and difficulty of handicapped access, it’s a good bet that the lag between when it could be mandated, and when a critical mass of businesses would choose to provide it on their own, would have been much longer than the fifteen years for airbags. What the mandate gets you is an entire generation of wheelchair-bound people being able to live more or less normal lives, as opposed to hardly being able to go anywhere without assistance.

Whether that’s worth the ‘tyranny’ of a government mandate very much depends on how you see the world, of course. But in both examples, the societal benefits are nontrivial.

Another example: since our starting point is America at the end of WWII, it’s worth recalling that America at that time was a far more racially segregated society than it is now. While public opposition had a great deal to do with changing that situation, it’s worth remembering that public sentiment forced sweeping changes in the laws, which forced white people to employ Negroes, let them buy houses and rent apartments, admit them to their schools, and otherwise put us whites in situations where we eventually had to recognize (and I’m not being facetious here) that persons of African descent were genuinely human, rather than some sort of half-man, half-ape, which ultimately made discrimination unacceptable as well as illegal.

How would this have been if America had been a libertarian wossname? The South had preserved Jim Crow for a century after the slaves were freed; what was to stop them from doing it for another century? Even assuming the absence of Jim Crow laws in a libertarian USA, we know it wasn’t just the laws that maintained Southern segregation, but a climate of fear as well. Would the central government have the authority, in a libertarian USA, to enforce the equal rights for blacks that the Southern states would have been unwilling to enforce? Would the South, under a libertarian system, simply secede, without contest this time, and be free to cease being libertarian with respect to race? And how much more slowly would de facto segregation and unequal enforcement of the laws in the North have ended? (It still continues, after all.)

In the long run, things would have surely changed. But as the long life of Jim Crow demonstrates, in the long run we’re all dead. Justice delayed for a lifetime is unquestionably justice denied.

Wow, RT, that’s an interesting (if tangential) point about Jim Crow feelings and seceeding. Good heavens. But it does somewhat illustrate what I was hoping to point out with handicapped people: that the social climate is such that it isn’t teneble to raise the public’s awareness.

On one hand, the law can circumvent public awareness (or rather, it can act positively inside of a context of public apathy) while in Libertaria public sympathy is absolutely necessary (barring Giant Squids, of course). On the other, Libertaria virtually guarantees that things happen either when the public has no choice, or when the entire public wants it to happen. A very dichotomous society.

Hmm.

Maybe we didn’t. It’s possible that handicapped access might have been achieved without governmental action. But the reality is that governmental action is what acheived it, and did so as efficiently as can be expected in the real world.

In other threads, I’ve stated my opinion that government is a powerful tool. And like any other tool, it can be both a great benefit and a great danger to individuals and society. But I think it’s foolish to throw away the benefits because we fear the dangers. Especially when other insitutions can create those same dangers and good government is one of the tools for facing them. A society without government could therefore face the worst of all possible situations and end up will all of the disadvantages and none of the advantages.

I do not see how physical deficiencies fall under the category of “social ill”.

TR, the OP was discussing disparate and/or exclusionary treatment of the disabled.

And besides, I was responding to **Lib[/]'s statement regarding the [lack of] “intentions” that libertarianism must live up to.

BTW, everybody, this thread seems relevant to our discussion.

Absence of special treatment is not disparate/exclusionary.

Sounds like an interesting thesis for a thread, TR.

*Maybe we didn’t. It’s possible that handicapped access might have been achieved without governmental action. *

Possible. But there’s the empirical reality of some 30-45 years prior to governmental regulation where handicapped facilities were not constructed voluntarily.

This, BTW, is the problem I have with certain libertarians. They note that the private sector is not devoid of charitable forces (true) and then maintain that they are sufficient (more contentious). Then they show a certain disinterest in evaluating empirical reality. It is this last stance that I have a problem with, whether manifested by Libertarians, Communists, Freudians or whomever. Instead, I hear talk of Freedom, Class Struggle, The Unconscious or whatever.

All those concepts are fine and well, but I’m wary of constructs that are overly detached from observation, testing or evaluation.

I hasten to add that Little Nemo (great name, btw) qualified his remarks in the above post. So, this commentary is not directed at him.

The best Libertarian thinking, IMHO, concedes the existence of market failures but pulls no punches when evaluating governmental failures.

(The problem with the latter, however, is that sometimes good libertarian analysis stops short of exploring the sorts of institutional reforms that can inoculate against certain governmental abuses and inefficiencies. But, I’m wandering off the point.)

Just to make it clear, flowbark, I’m no libertarian (as Libertarian himself would be the first to affirm) and for reasons similar to what you posted. I feel the libertarian platform has some good ideas which I support but overall I think their philosophy is unworkable and I’d prefer to support some other political program which I think is more likely accomplish the same goals in the real world.

In discussing libertarian ideas with avowed libertarians, I’ve often run into an “apples vs oranges” situation. A true libertarian society has never existed in the real world, so any discussion of a libertarian society must depend on conjecture. Fair enough; the fact that it hasn’t existed is no reason to say it couldn’t or shouldn’t exist. But too often I have found libertarians comparing an ideal libertarian society with a real world society based on some other political system; in such a comparison, the libertarian society naturally wins.

History has shown that every political ideas has been degraded in the transition from theory to practice. That’s no reason to dismiss an political idea outright, but there’s no reason to think libertarianism is different. The question is whether libertarianism would be like representative democracy, which took a few hard blows entering reality but managed to keep standing, or like communism, which was mortally wounded by reality and suffered a slow and lingering demise.

Sufficient for what?

Sufficient to produce a just society, which is what we are all aiming for in one way or another although our ideas of justice will no doubt differ.

To expand on flowbarks’s analysis: It seems to me that libertarians fall into two camps—those who share at least some conception of the “just society” that many of the rest of us share (e.g., in terms of people not starving on the street) but believe that libertarianism done right will provide the incentives for such justice (flowbark points out this group).

Then there are those who do not share these conceptions or pretty much feel “we want maximum liberty [in a very specific, I think weird, definition of the term] and let the chips fall where they may.” I personally find this latter group [which, from the looks of his comments in this and other threads, includes The Ryan] really not worth arguing with. All I really want to say to them is that I find their conception of a just society to be pretty rotten and their attempts to justify it in any a priori way (“you have no right to do this or that”) to be completely insufficient. So, we are basically left to fight it out in the political realm. May the best conception win.

Some libertarians seem to imply that a libertarian society would not be a vastly less equitable one than the US status quo. In the context of this thread, this group would point to “reputation” and imply that the private sector would provide a level of handicapped access that is consistent with the culture’s set of values.

The key point I was making though, is that good analysis is grounded on observation of empirical reality. There is a long span of time where handicapped access was not mandated; this experience sheds light on the sort of outcomes that we would expect to see in Libertaria.

Caveats:

  1. Hey, maybe we have too much handicapped access now.
  2. Not all Libertarians are fact-resistant, as I noted above.

Finally, let me try to restate.
"This, BTW, is the problem I have with certain libertarians. They note that the private sector is not devoid of charitable forces (true) and then imply that these charitable forces will produce outcomes that are comparable to the status quo (dubious, to the extent that free rider effects are ignored). "

Is it OK to organize public boycotts in Libertaria?

What would be the attitude of the government and/or the people towards handicapped people and their families or supporters marching up and down in front of the Libertarian Hilton with signs reading “Unfair to Libertarian Paraplegics” (okay, they would be awfully big signs) because the LH has no wheel-chair accessible rooms?

I ask because I envision public pressure and boycotts in Libertaria aimed at private organizations rather than at lobbying the government to pass a law to get whatever change they want. I see the advantage in that there would be an automatic "sunset’ provision in most such social changes, where proposed changes not seen as worthwhile would be tried and then abandoned. I also see the disadvantage, in that proposed changes that are worthwhile would also be abandoned.

I would also like to ask if Libertaria has a standing army, or other such activities that work when centralized and coordinated by the government? Or is Libertaria defended only by heavily armed guerillas?

I don’t mean to trigger a shouting match, so if you find you need to blast someone, consider me a volunteer. Or just smile indulgently and fight my ignorance.

Regards,
Shodan