Libertarian is a monster

The BBQ Pit
21

I made this post on the other thread, but it’s worth repeating here: Faced with prison for abandoning a baby, some mothers-to-be would rather get an abortion. Since you’re so against mothers “throwing away their babies” (and so am I), I’m guessing you think abortion should also be illegal. (I don’t. I think it ought to be safe, legal and used only as a last resort.)

I lived in Orlando, Florida, a few years ago when a young woman gave birth in a Walt Disney World restroom. The baby was found in time and is now a three-year-old girl, adopted by a married couple. I’m not sure what happened to the mother. (I think she was deported. She was from Indonesia, I think.) I’m also not sure why she gave birth at WDW. But I think she later tried to get the baby back and was denied. At any rate, had the hospital option been available, she might have gone there instead.

I was unable to find anything on the WWW about this particular case, but maybe you should read this old story from CNN. The title is “Fear, denial lie behind abandoned babies epidemic.”

(Please note that understanding why this happens is not necessarily condoning it.)

Part of it is the stigma attached to unwed motherhood. Some get rid of their infants so people won’t consider them sluts or whores. Pretty screwed-up priorities, hmm?

Another reason is that these are often first-time mothers. Pregnancy can be a terriying thing and abandoning the child may be her way of getting the whole thing over with as quickly as possible.

And a third reason is denial. They refuse to face the fact that they made a mistake and and got pregnant and if they get rid of the infant, they’re thinking, they can continue to pretend that they were never pregnant at all.

None of these reasons are good, of course, but I don’t think imprisoning them is the answer. You also said something about preventing this in the future. How? Sterilization?

When all else fails, ask Cecil.

22

Singledad,

In Lib’s defense, I think you are misunderstanding what he is saying.

Correct me if I am wrong Lib, but Lib finds the act that abandonment by a woman as an outrage. What he sees is the government is giving approval for woman to give little or no thought when having sex (hey this goes for men too). If a woman finds herself in the predicament (sp?) of being pregnant, all she needs to do is have the baby and drop it off no questions asked. This opens the doors for people to not take responsibility.

He’s not against adoption, but he is against the idea that dropping off your baby, no questions asked is absolutely repulsive and she and the father of her baby (course no one has really brought up the man in this issue) should be held responsible for this.

Lib said:

This is where you and I disagree…the father of this child should be held accountable too. It’s his sperm and a man should be considered just as responsible for this just as much as a woman, she is the vessel by which this baby was able to survive, but it takes two to tango.

23

I’ve got a great idea! Let’s keep it 100% legal to discard your baby at a State Disposal Facility. When a mother arrives to throw her newborn away, she is drugged, tagged, sterilized and released back into society. After five years the State claims 80% of all of her paychecks for the rest of her life.

I think Georgia’s on to something!

Yet to be reconciled with the reality of the dark for a moment, I go on wandering from dream to dream.

24

Assuming she told him she was pregnant, yes?

25

My own opinion is that there is not enough information available to be dogmatic on this issue. There are two points under consideration re the proposed change in the abandonment law- 1st: will it increase the number of babies abandoned by their parents; 2nd: will it decrease the number who are abandoned in unsafe locations (e.g. dumpsters, toilet stalls &c. ) Note that these are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

There has not been enough experience to state with certainty whether either will occur. Lib has stated (and not without reason IMHO) that he believes the first outcome will occur- there will be more cases of child abandonment- but that the second will not occur, because the people who are currently abandoning babies in dumpsters are not moved by rational considerations.

However, assume that experience in fact shows that the new law does reduce unsafe abandonment of babies, while increasing the total number of abandonments. What should be done in that case? Wouldn’t the need to save babies’ lives override society’s otherwise justifiable right to punish irresponsible parents and its right to be spared the expense of raising the children of the irresponsible?(Realize the expense will be short-lived for the abandoned babies who are healthy and white, as they will quickly find adoptive parents- it is sad that such restrictive qualifications have to be made, but, if we’re examining this issue honestly, they must)

26

NO. Unprotected sex = babies. The hypothetical father had sex knowing that equation. Why should not knowing about the kid absolve him of responsibility? If he isn’t willing to take responsibility for his actions he shouldn’t be engaged in those actions.

-andros-

27

TechChick

As you can see above, I acknowledged my omission. Yes, the father is equally to blame.

28

Lib: It is entirely possible that I missed the point of your post.

If you are indeed saying that you were referring to the mothers who actually are (as opposed to might be) “dumping their babies in trash bins and bathroom stalls” as deserving the most extreme punishment, then I fully retract my original posting, in all sincerity, humility and profound embarassment.

I perhaps disagree with you on the specific appropriate response, but I agree as to the general finding that such people have inexcusably placed themselves beyond the pale of any reasonable morality.

The post to which I’m specifically referring:

An ordinary reading of that exchange leads me to believe that you support slavery (“it {the government} should throw her into prison and force her to work”) for “a mother {who} doesn’t want her baby.”

The remainder of the post refers to ‘she’, presumably referring to the only referent in the post, “a mother {who} doesn’t want her baby.” You accuse ‘her’ of being a criminal among criminals, among other things.

And that is not entirely an unjustified presumption. In the aforementioned post as well as others, you seem equate placing the child with hospital authorities with abandoning the child in a dumpster; having an unwanted pregnancy with actually treating a born child with depraved indifference.

When we give a parent, who may well have less moral sense than a retarded sea slug, the opportunity to make a morally correct decision, and they take it, we cannot then punish them. We cannot punish a person for their nature or for actions they might have taken.

29

Sorry Lib, I missed it!

< blush >

30

SingleDad

I blame myself for the misunderstanding. Father Mentock was right; I sometimes shoot from the hip.

TechChick

Go, and sin no more! :wink:

31

[paternal condescension]
I think we’ve learned a few things today, right Beav?
[/paternal condescension]

32

I’m sorry but I can’t tolerate this kind of harmony and constructive working out of differences in the pit.

So…
Lib:

I just received an email from Singledad, and he said he was going to kick your ass during recess because your a poopyhead, and we all know what you REALLY meant with that comment know matter how well you played it off.

Singledad:

C’mon man! You gonna let him off that easy? You got him on the ropes. Finish him off with a quick personal attack!

Andros:

Nobody likes a reasonable peacemaker. So but out!

Allright, let’s get back to fight.
Hey, it’s the Pit, right?

33

Scylla,

What, no flame of me…I am hurt :frowning:
:wink:

34

Tech:

You and I are supposed to stand on the sidelines and encourage the fight!

Here, you distract Andros, I’ll smack Lib on the head and say Singledad did it, 'kay?

35

Andros,

Well said…thank you.

It should never be the sole responsibility for a woman to ensure she doesn’t become pregnant, even if she is a slut (one who sleeps around) a man should never assume that she is taking care to not become pregnant. If he doesn’t want a kid then he needs to assume some responsibility on his end too.

As a woman, I find it incredibly offensive that I am to assume ALL responsibility when it comes to fertilization or not…hmmm, this may make a good GD topic as I stray from the OP.

36

I’m putting this quote in my pocket for use at a later date. You never know when these things will come in handy.

Editorial: Personally, I don’t see dumping a nine month old developing child in a trash can as any more or less despicable than throwing a 3 month old developing child in a trash can. Which isn’t to say that I don’t think it’s the most inhumane and ruthless thing that a human being is capable of.

None of this changes the fact that “monster” probably isn’t the best word to describe Libertarian. He’s just a confused man with a soapbox. The difference between monsters and confused men with soapboxes is monsters usually command some military might. So when Lib leads a coup d’etat and overthrows the government with his ragtag team of commandos and mercenaries, then and only then shall we talk about him being a “monster.”

“History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it.” -Winston Churchill

37

I guess you guys n gals are gonna’ have to stick me in the same hole as the other monsters 'cause I believe we ought to flay all of 'em; anyone, male, female or space aliens who creates a human life without the intent of taking care of their responsibility.

Melin: Yes, the father should be castrated also.

As for me:

cruel = practical in the long-term (oh yeah, fuck 'em)

self-righteous character = maybe so, but I’ve had sex a couple of times and never produced offspring I didn’t intend to provide with everything I possibly could.

without a shred of human compassion = not a lot. As long as the rules are equally applied, you reap what you sow.

SingleDad:

Even if a woman decides to turn her children over to an institution or individual(s) that child statistically will NEVER have the same opportunities as a wanted child. Adopted children and step children are physically, mentally and sexually abused by their adoptive parents way more often than a natural child and that’s only the tip of the iceberg.

It happens much more often that the mothers are the one’s left holding the bag so-to-speak. I think we ought to hunt down all of the thoughless SOB fathers and do something very nasty . . . I can’t think of anything bad enough right now.

These thoughtless individuals are fucking up someone else’s entire lives. I’ve had my life fucked up and I goddamn well don’t appreciate it. If you disagree with what I’ve said here, well fuck you too.

38

People need to be responsible for their actions. Leftists don’t like this concept and would rather live in an environment of ‘victimization’, where there is no wrong doing (because there is no right or wrong, no points of reference).

Single Dad:

Abandoning her child is ‘an attempt to assure at least a chance at a decent life’?

and:

The current consficatory income tax system is not a form of slavery?

What leftists don’t seem to understand is that you get more of whatever you subsidize. Want more ‘homeless’ in your town? Open a homeless shelter. Want more people in poverty. Pass out food stamps/welfare.

Or maybe the socialists know this all too well. They know that by creating more and more dependent people, they will hope to ensure their powerbase for generations to come.

Have a nice day :slight_smile:

39

Cite? And for adopted children, not stepchildren. Furthermore, I flat out refuse to believe that adopted children suffer from abuse and neglect at a higher rate than children left in the enviroment that the adopted children were adopted out of. In other words, I can’t believe that two fifteen year olds with no jobs and no prospects are doing their baby an injustice or preforming a selfish act when they place their infant with a mature, finacially sound, emotionally prepared enviroment. Is this what you are trying to imply?

40

I was referring to the abandonment. Perhaps I should have been clearer… Lib is proposing we should prosecute mothers for abandoning their children. Techchick says we should prosecute fathers. I agree that the parties privy to the abandonment/murder should be held responsible. But…

[hypothetical]
Law is passed that punishes both father and mother for abandoning child. A particular mother never tells father she is pregnant, has the child, leaves it in a dumpster and it dies. The law now says the father must be punished as well, regardless of whether he had any knowledge of the mother’s actions. Had this particular father known, he would have taken responsibility, but because she was too afraid to tell anybody or never saw him again, he must go to prison for actions he had no knowledge of.
[/hypothetical]