Libertarian Principle in action?

Great Debates
1

Okay I’ve been trying to think of a real world example of what I consider the Libertarian Idea. That is, minimum government interference, every man responsible for the decisions they make and the results of those decisions and everyone is considered to have the same starting point; you sink or swim…period.

eBay.

Now bear with me and I’ll try to keep make sense.

On eBay every person (Seller) starts out equal, 0 feedback and using whatever tools they have, either by accident or design; they have the ability to sell. make profit and succeed. eBay has minimal rules as to what can and where items can be sold, but for the most part you’re left to your own devices. eBay swears that they don’t have staff members looking for violations nor do they use keyword searches to look for or prevent listing violations.

This is because all users of eBay are considered to have the ability to know was is allowed, either by using the various “Can I list this” FAQs, Community Bulletin Board or the various eBay help centers. Not knowing is not an acceptable excuse, nor is, “but everyone else is doing it…”

Many eBay supporters feel that eBay’s resources are better spent protecting the community from real fraud, than to waste it doing something that users are willing do for free. Things like creating keyword filters that would prevent or inform sellers BEFORE they list that their item isn’t allowed…is considered a waste of resources.

Some eBay purists feel that the sellers should know what’s allowed or not use the service.

Any problems you may have are considered YOUR fault, whether you send cash, or ship without delivery confirmation…you are considered an adult and should be responsible for the choices you make. eBay does offer some buyer protection, I believe up to $200, the first $25 of which goes to “services”…however some eBayers feel that eBay shouldn’t even do that…“you get ripped off, that’s YOUR fault for not being smarter, or too trusting …”

Most listing violations are found, not by eBay staff; but by other eBay users. There is a reporting system that allows other eBayers to report a listing they feel is in violation of eBay policy. An example of would be some NAZI related materials, such as Mein Kampf or WWII medals, posters…etc. These are considered “hate” materials and are not allowed on eBay: * “Items that bear symbols of the Nazis, the SS, or the KKK, including authentic German WWII memorabilia that bear such marks”*

These items if found and reported, will be pulled; too many and the seller will be suspended.

Anyone can make a report, even if they are selling the same item as the person they are reporting on. eBay doesn’t check the source of the report, only the report itself. You are considered an individual that is in violation, it doesn’t matter what anyone esle is doing…this is about YOU.

Now, I have numerous problems with the system, however it appears to function quite well.

Can this be considered an example of a Libertarian society? If not, why not and what flaws do you see?

2

I don’t know if I consider it to be an example of a “libertarian” ideal, but I would like to point out that eBay is notorious for people lying, cheating, stealing, and otherwise clawing their way to the top, including exploiting the feedback system for whatever personal profit they can gain.

However, an auction system is far different than a form of government. They don’t have any services beyond the auctioning to provide - no security services, utilities, local administration… in essence, they don’t have to keep the street paved.

3

I think that eBay tries to get as close to that ideal as possible, and that the effort to do so is a reason that contributes to their success. However, no truly Libertarian/Free society or market can evolve within an already constrained marketplace. For instance, I could not go on eBay and sell a fully automatic AK-47 to anyone who would bid.

This general problem is compounded when eBay sets up their own rules, beyond those of the individual political locales of the buyers and sellers, as to what can be sold. The example given of the nazi memorabilia is a perfect one.

There are some (horribly wrong-minded, IMHO) jurisdictions that do not allow such material to be bought or sold, but this is not the case in all jurisdictions. For eBay to decide to make this rule general, rather than a specific no listing of/bidding on material illegal in your jurisdiction rule, limits the freedom and libertarian ideal of the marketplace.

If we consider eBay to be the independent business-owner making that decision, then there is no problem. Free market/libertarian ideals certainly allow for a businessman to make decisions that are not in the interests of others and that may run counter to their own best interests. However, I think that eBay exists more as an external, controlling agent rather than as an independent marketer. As such, their interference with the free market ideal severly hampers their libertarian impact. I fully recognize that this distinction is not clear cut and could easily be argued the other way. I leave it to you to decide which you feel is the accurate representation.

Beyond that objection, the waters become less murky. There truly is a minimal oversight of the market by eBay, and they do seem to provide that one true service of “government” - protection from fraud. On the whole, I think that eBay opens up the market to many who would not be ablet to buy/sell their goods effectively in other ways. This has the effect of freeing the market considerably, a good thing in mye estimation.

4

Actually, by analogy they do, and eBay charges a flat “tax”, don’t they?

5

As opposed to our government, which is staffed only with saints and has never produced a single incident of scandal? :slight_smile: I think you’re overestimated the amount of fraud that takes place on eBay. If it were truely as you describe, it would not be so successful and have so many customers. Do you have a cite which discusses this and quantifies the amount of fraud?

I think a better analogy for a libertarian-type situation would be the IC/PC industry in the 70s and 80s. A new technology more or less outside the influence of government.

6

Kowloon Walled City is the closest thing to a functioning Libertarian community that I can think of.

The lesson that I take away from the KWC experiment is that in the absence of an effective government, people spontaneously form impromptu quasi-governmental organizations (i.e. gangs) to take up the slack. KWC was run by organized crime in the 50’s and 60’s until the Hong Kong police got fed up and raided the place.

This suggests that large-scale Libertarianism, like large-scale Communism, is an unsustainable model for social organization.

Communism is crippled because centralized control is naturally ineffeciency and because it provides a breeding ground for nepotism and corruption. Maintaining a communist regime’s control in the face of such obvious waste and corruption can only be achieved by imposing a police state.

Libertarianism, while economically efficient, has no means to protect itself from gangsterism. If there is a vacuum in political power, it will be filled, generally by an organization interested only in advancing its own interests. Once such a group gets powerful enough, it essentially becomes the government, and from that point forward is unlikely to continue to allow non-group members to enjoy Libertarian freedoms. A Libertarian state is like a body with a weak immune system.

Both Communism and Libertarianism are essentially utopian idealogies – better in theory than in practice. It’s interesting to note that while Communism led to horrible atrocities, as a method of large scale political organization it actually kind of worked, albeit in a brutal, crippled, wasteful way. The Communist Soviet Union was still strong enough to kick Hitler’s ass, for example. Libertarianism has yet to demonstrate that it can work at all on a large scale in the real world. And yet Libertarianism is considered a more respectable political affiliation than Communism … .

Weird.

7

I think it is a common misconception to confuse Libertarianism with Anarchism. A libertertarian government would probably have a police and judicial system very similar to what you find in the US today.