Libertarian Topic of the Week 1: Civil Rights

I honestly didn’t intend any snark there; it was just an observation.

When I first fell in love with libertarianism, it was after reading some of John Stossel’s books. Stossel loved to focus on free market successes, like toll roads improving traffic patterns, or exotic animal farms resulting in a population increase for endangered species. In other words, Stossel sold libertarianism based on its outcomes, a strategy that stands in stark contrast to this thread and the other one, where freedom seems to be its own reward.

It didn’t take me long to become disillusioned, though, especially with the cherry-picking. Sure, ivory farms might protect elephant populations in order to sell that sweet, sweet ivory, but most endangered species aren’t sexy or profitable; the free market has no answer to that.

So it is here, where there are lots of restaurants that mostly don’t discriminate anyway, and if they do, people have plenty of alternatives, and boycotts are likely, and nobody wants a spitburger anyway. But housing discrimination is very real. Because units are limited in number, landlords can easily discriminate without signs. Because the number of potential customers is small, boycotts are unlikely. And because someone’s location determines access to public schools, safety, and better access to goods and services (like not living in a food desert), people will surely be willing to tolerate living under a discriminatory landlord if it nets them all of those other great benefits.

I find that I’m very open to most libertarian ideas, even still. If libertarians want to argue that protected classes are obsolete, they can make their case. If they want to argue that they’re too broad (maybe not all races/genders/religions need protecting, or maybe not all businesses, like restaurants, need to adhere to them), I’d listen to that argument. But I think that doing away with them altogether will cause society more harm than we’d benefit.

I think we’ll have to just agree to disagree since there is no way either of us can prove our position.

At any rate, it’s not my intention to try and convert you or other posters into agreeing with the Libertarian principles that I do agree with. Nor do I intend to try and change them minds of the real Libertarians regarding those principle I don’t agree with. Most people here have their minds already made up. I just want to provide a venue that is conducive to reasoned discussion of Libertarian principles by focusing on specific issues rather than the entire philosophy. To debunk myths and clarify points of agreement and disagreement among libertarians of various stripes.

Okay. It’s my intention to demonstrate my thinking: that your libertarian philosophy in action would result in significantly increased discrimination, with the return of things like sundown towns. It wouldn’t be as bad as Jim Crow, but it would be significantly worse than it is now, in my view.

Government-enforced civil rights does more than just ensure protected classes can get a hamburger. It is in society’s interest to limit discrimination because of the adverse effects it has on longterm community health, including the economy.

If a certain demographic is systematically kept out of high earning white-collar jobs, you’re essentially going to create a permanent underclass predominated by that demographic. Businesses started by this stigmatized demographic will often be unable to compete against majority-owned businesses because they have less resources, so they will fail. They will be at a disadvantage generation after generation.

Is that group really going to be as invested in society as everyone else? No. So that demographic is going to be lash out in criminal ways. Or become addicted to drugs and engage in other self-destructive behaviors that spill over to others.

“They should just move!” is often proposed as a solution to this problem. But history has shown that this doesn’t happen. And if it does, it doesn’t solve anything because their handicaps travel with them.

So what does the libertarians say to this? If a consequence of more business freedom is more crime by marginalized groups, why should the average joe be in favor of this system?

As I understand the usual libertarian position, government intervention isn’t necessary to limit discrimination, because rational economic behaviour does that just fine - or at least, no worse.

So I don’t think libertarians would disagree with your ideas as to how rampant discrimination would affect society, you with the face, they’d just disagree that libertarian social policies would lead to that. There are some negatives that they would say such a system would result in (which would be outweighed by the positives), but increased discrimination isn’t accepted as being one of them.

If protection of these classes is only “obsolete” because of years of government intervention, it makes it hard to see why a shift towards libertarianism is justified or prudent. It would be like doing away with vaccination suddenly because disease prevalence is low.

Well, a pure Libertarian will say that it doesn’t matter since the goal is to maximize personal freedom. A less pure libertarian might argue that net/net crime will be reduced since many fewer things will be crimes to begin with (like drugs being illegal) even if crimes in certain areas might rise.

As for me, personally, as I already noted I think that systematic discrimination is near impossible without the collusion of government, so I don’t think it would be so big a problem.

Don’t we already have evidence that they would, though? That’s the thing that is confusing to me in this thread. Businesses in 1940’s south weren’t exactly standing shoulder to shoulder with MLK et al., fighting to do away with separate but equal. They were largely in support of discrimination because that’s what their customers wanted. Same with factory jobs in the North that kept immigrants out in favor of the “natives”, resulting in ghettos.

If discrimination resulting in widespread ethnic marginalization isn’t a foreseeable consequence of laissez-faire labor policies, what is the historical evidence for that? When has the free market ever been effective in self-correcting practices that harms the minority much more than the majority?

Why do you think this? The government in the Jim Crow south was merely carrying out the wishes of the voting public. If businesses didn’t want separate but equal because they thought it hurt their bottom line, they would have had the clout to change the system. Or at the very least, clamor for change. Why didn’t they?

If the states back then had been more libertarian, do you think Jim Crow would have existed? I don’t, but only because I doubt slavery would have ever ended.

I’m not suggesting a shift towards libertarianism, but if we’d enacted anti-discrimination laws to protect the Irish in the 19th century, and those (presumably obsolete) laws were still on the books in 2014, then I wouldn’t care if they were repealed. Especially if there were still enforcement agencies spending money to ensure that anti-Irish discrimination wasn’t happening. After decades of them saying, “Nope, not happening,” I’d like to think we could shut them down, repeal the law, and save the money. Job well done, government. Note that I don’t think this applies to any of the current protected classes.

Besides, I was never vaccinated for smallpox, so I’m not sure that analogy supports your argument.

It is. Just as flag burning, KKK marches, and other personally abhorrent behavior is an acceptable consequence of free speech. I do not think the return of sundown towns are likely or even remotely possible but I do acknowledge that should they happen, they would not be prevented by force of law.

I know this thread is about civil rights and being a victim of housing discrimination surely falls into that category, the prevalence of the other factors you list that lead to the circumstances where housing discrimination can flourish would tend to be reduced in the libertarian ideal. Without getting into too much of a hijack, there would theoretically be more housing available, more schools available, better public safety, and overall more access to goods and services. These are outcomes that I think flow from a move towards the libertarian ideal. Just like I’m against mandating helmet laws because I think people should be free to make those choices, this can not happen in a vaccuum because as long as I have to pay for it via emergency services I am also impacted. The libertarian ideal applies to the entire sphere of how we organize our lives and works best in concert, rather than any specific aspect alone. I know this is a hijack and I’m sure **John **will start other threads about some of these other areas.

Times change. If the 13th amendment were stricken from the constitution, do you think there would be rampant slavery? I don’t. This isn’t a cogent argument, I know - but an illustration that just because something happened in the past without the protection of law does not *necessarily *mean that in the absence of those laws at a different point in our history those same events would come to pass.

When sundown towns were very prevalent, and it was very difficult for black people to travel long distances safely, was it a good or bad thing that government made it illegal?

Small pox has been eradicated, and because it’s a disease exclusive to humans, it’s unlikely to return. So there is no reason to vaccinate against it anymore. We vaccinate for diseases even if they are rare because without vaccination, it wouldn’t take very long for those diseases to return to crisis levels. So yeah the analogy supports my argument.

The Irish might not be a protected class, per se. But because its unlawful to discriminate against someone on the basis of their ethnicity, they are included in that. If we are going pick and choose with ethnicity to “protect” based on trends, seems to me a whole lot of red tape could be saved just by keep the law general enough to prevent any ethnic discrimination.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think libertarian policies would be effective against discrimination; i’m in agreement with you on this. I’m just saying that presumably libertarians don’t agree, and so it’s not, for them, one of those negatives outweighed by the positives - they wouldn’t say that it was a problem that libertarianism faces.

I smell fallaciousness. Your whole argument presumes that laws don’t have a big role in making “times change”. No, I don’t think there’d be rampant slavery if we repealed the 13th amendment but only because government intervention has helped change the public’s consciousness in the last 150 years. I don’t take that for granted in the slightest.

That said, I don’t rule out the possibility of slavery making a comeback given enough time. Memory doesn’t last very long, and times can change in nonprogressive directions when there’s scarcity and instability. Anyone who thinks discrimination, slavery, or even genocide are practices that have been relegated to the past are obviously not paying attention to current events. The free market can not be entirely rational because we are not rational beings when our psychology gets in the way.

If the only way Libertopia can optimally function is by banking on centuries of government-facilitated social changes, then its farcical to act as though libertarianism is a practical philosophy. Again, it’s like arguing that we don’t need public health agencies because people rarely get sick from water and food anymore. If that’s true, that is only because public health agencies have been effective.

Funny, I was just thinking about this as I was composing one of my own posts. One limitation of adhering to a strict “discuss this issue and only this issue in this thread” is that libertarian ideals cannot be understood thoroughly in a vacuum. There are certainly libertarian positions, like the one you mention, that don’t work well if instituted by themselves. I think we can’t expect these threads to operate on a strict “one issue at a time” policy, but I hope people will not bring in extraneous issues not related to the one we’re discussing.

The purple unicorn crowd’s logic seems to be thus:

Cases of polio going down? Who needs vaccines?
Nobody dying from tainted beef? Who needs the USDA?
No more sundown towns? Who needs the Civil Rights Act?

So a law that has worked quite well in greatly reducing institutional discrimination would be unneeded in this hypothetical government that has never existed anywhere on the planet because- well just because.

I want to say that no one is proposing there would be no more sundown towns, but Bone has sort of said that, so I’ll ask him to clarify. Do you really think there would not be a single sundown town in the US, no matter how small, if Title II was eliminated?

As it is, if a town in the US today was determined to become a sundown town, they just make all the key establishments private clubs and they can then discriminate all they want. And yet that has not happened, has it?

I think the result was good and the method was bad, but understandable.

I don’t take it for granted either. This belief system is much less compelling if we go back in time 50 or 100 years. I would still support it most likely but there are strong arguments against it for various reasons. The fact is, the US today is a very different place than it was many years ago. Societal shifts have made attitudes towards racism very negative, and rightly so. I suspect the same will happen towards the LGBT community as well and hope that happens as fast as possible. The system of government that best serves its population is not static.

What people like **John **and others who hold libertarian beliefs feel is that the country would be better served if it moved in the direction toward the libertarian ideal moreso than it is now. Getting government mostly out of the regulation of commerce is one way that can happen. As a side effect, things like certain protections of the civil rights act would be abandoned not because of an effort to shelter racists, but because it would be the logical extension of the retraction of government from commerce.

Slavery is a non-starter in a libertarian society. Government would employ whatever force necessary to eradicate it. Genocide too, of course. And I believe there is a place for public health/water agencies to ensure the safety of what we eat/drink. It would be a different character than what we currently have, but they would exist for sure.

I keep seeing this be treated as a given. Why?

A libertarian government, by definition, is small with significantly less power than a non-libertarian one. Correct?

So how would such a small government be capable of employing sufficient force to eradicate a financial behemoth like slavery? And why do we have any reason to believe libertarian law would have recognized black people as people entitled to the same rights as whites? This notion must be pre-supposed to make your assertion true, but I see no reason to do that.