Libertarianism -- sell me

A few additional tomes to the library, based on some quick searching:

March 2003
Literary Criticism: Information as Coercion Exception, by Apos.
Survey: Unimplemented Political Ideas, by Florentine Pogen.

April 2003
Travelogue: Libertarians To Infiltrate Idaho, by Dewey Cheatem Undhow.

June 2003
Foriegn Affairs: Why No LP Outside the US?, by BrainGlutton.

July 2003
Comparative Studies: Anarchism vs. Libertarianism, by Panzerfaust.

May 2004
Panel Discussion: Why do Libertarians vote Republican?, by Polerius.

All added to the main library, including this thread.

Dewey, how did you find “Sarah’s Gold”? I put the words in the left-box and selected “Search Titles Only”. Then I selected MPSIMS from the list of forums. I left all else at default, and got a no items found message. What did you do differently?

I seriously considered giving the magician’s response to you Lib, but my better nature prevails…

Search on “Sarah Gold” across all forums, searching both titles and message text, with a time limit of “past year and older.” It’s the first link on the list.

And the final chapter of the saga, Why I left the party.

As Dewey O so helpfully mentioned, I consider myself a ‘Practical Libertarian’. I have a certain underlying belief that the efficiencies gained by the market will do good. But I also realize (to quote Lex Luthor):

“Stocks may rise and fall, utilities and transportation systems may collapse, people and no damn good…”

Simply put, the need to form governments by human beings derives from our background as social tribal creatures and Libertarianism defies that background. And defying human nature is a good way to break one’s heart.

I’m defining ‘government’ here as a set of rules and procedures, forming from an underlying societal shared understanding, that govern the ways and means by which members of a society interact.

And that leads us to governments, totalitarian, democratic, theocratic, what have you. There is simply no means to avoid it.

And therefore what we as libertarians should be targeting is the minimization of the intrusiveness of government but maintaining an assumption that people, in groups, want a certain amount of regulation and control over the actions of other people even if it leads to controls over their own actions.

Which leads me to my near blood brother John Mace. When he mentioned WAAAY up there that bit about ‘strict constructionist’ interpretations of the constitution he hits the nail on the head. By using the constitution, as the supreme agreement between inhabitants of the United States, as the guiding force behind society then I come to the conclusion that the limitations placed on government (and the powers that derive from them) are the best protection for us from an overriding tyranny. And that’s the best one can legitimately hope for given that we’re dealing with human beings.

Do I disagree with certain actions government performs? Yes, of course. But I also know that I can take steps to dissent and bring about change.

Lastly, I dislike the Libertarian Party immensely. Why? I’ve said this before.

By approaching libertarianism as an intellectual philosophy instead of a viable political movement they indicate the level to which they bankrupt and stalemate themselves. Politics is a game of half-steps and compromise.

The Libertarian Party, however, with their dogmatist attitude indicates that they’d rather believe themselves to be right than to win.

Suckers.

I see Libertarianism, if embraced on a practical level, as a sure-fire way for America to join the Third World

Elimination of minimum wage would lead to employers deciding that they really only needed to pay their workers $.25 an hour. Meanwhile, landlords/apartment complex owners and real estate developers would still continue to charge as much as the market will bear. (What, you don’t really believe that big corporations will think, “Hmm, since we’re now only paying our workers two or three percent of what they used to earn, now we can afford to cut prices?” No, they will say, “Now that we’re only paying our workers a couple of dimes an hour, our profits will be going through the roof.” ) The same for producers and sellers of other small luxuries such as food, clothing, medical care, etc.

The mass of working people would not be able to afford these basics of life. Of course, the wealthy would still have police protection to move the rapidly increasing numbers of homeless off of their privately owned vacant lots…

The pay scale is, and always will be relative to the skill level of workers, and if the unskilled are only making a few dimes an hour, there is incentive to pay more highly skilled workers more than a couple of bucks an hour. After all, it’s still a helluvalot more than the unskilled laborer is making. So, engineers would make, what, eight or ten k a year?.

People in the somewhat higher-paid skilled labor or white-collar jobs of course, would be able to afford housing. Simply have four or five families living in a one-bedroom apartment. And with no building codes, landlords would be free to not do basic maintainance on the apartments, so people would revert to using outdoor plumbing.

What, you say? The workers are free to refuse to accept less money than it takes to actually have a roof over their head and decent clothing?

Yeah, if you consider that this means that they’re also free to not be able to buy their weekly bag of rice and beans, and thus go from malnutrition to outright starvation.

Of course, the corporate owned hospitals would also be free to refuse to treat patients who did not have the money to pay for their grotesquely overpriced services. What, this homeless guy got run over by a car? He has no money, and since there is no law to require that we treat someone who can’t pay, we just won’t treat him.

The thing is, Libertarians seem to operate on the assumption that people, by and large, are decent, moral beings who, left to their own devices, will do what is right. Experience has taught me otherwise. People will do what is expedient, and in their own immediate self interest. It would not be in the immediate self interest of any company, landlord, etc. to lower their prices to a level that someone making two bits an hour could afford when they could still be profitable charging what the four dollar an hour professional classes could afford. The Pooh-Bahs in big corporations will still be greedy, and will continue to screw anyone and everyone they can in order to line their own wallets.

If that is true - if mimimum wage laws are the only thing propping up wages in the US - why is anyone ever paid more than $5.15 per hour?

Feel free to apply the same reasoning to everything else in your post.

Regards,
Shodan

The standard libertarian response to this, which has some merit, is that the workers are free to find a better job. After all, if Ajax Pharmaceuticals is paying $0.25 an hour, and Omega Chemicals is paying $30 an hour, which company is going to end up with the skilled employees? Ajax can’t protect its workforce, and all Omega needs to do is outcompete Ajax on the salary front. Indeed, if Omega comes in and offers $0.50 an hour, they’ll get all the employees for themselves–that is, they’ll get them until Zeta Inc. comes along and offers $1.00 an hour, and then Ajax counters with $2.00 an hour, and so on and so forth until the fair market value of the labor is reached. Workers can move around, you see, and shop for the best wages.

Except, of course, they can’t. For four reasons.

First, starting up a new company is difficult and requires tremendous capital. When Omega Chemical moves into town and starts their factory, the head of Ajax will (if she’s smart) immediately give employees a raise to, let’s say, $35.00 an hour, thereby robbing Omega of the chance of siphoning off any employees. Ajax, as an established large company, can afford to run at a loss for awhile; Omega, as a small new business, is already running at a loss and can’t afford to compete in a nonsensical price war. Ajax, in other words,can “dump” salaries in order to drive competitors out of business, and then can reduce salaries back to poverty levels once the competitors are gone.

Second, company towns are quite possible. Let’s say that, in an impoverished area, Ajax exists and is paying $0.25 an hour. Omega moves in and offers $2.00 an hour to all workers who sign a 10-year contract; early breaking of the contract requires employees to pay back 50% of their wages. Most workers will jump at the chance to make quadruple their pay, even though $2.00 an hour is still a crappy wage; for the next ten years, Zeta isn’t going to be able to break the market. This is a situation similar to the strip-mall developer above.

Third, there’s the pool of unemployed, employable workers, which hovers around 5% in recent years but has been significantly higher in the past. These folks are always in the sidelines and are looking for work; the lowest tier of workers must compete with them for jobs. Their existence guarantees that wages will go to the minimum level that allows workers to physically survive, absent the presence of an enforced minimum wage.

Fourth, and most importantly, capital is more mobile than workers are. If Lisa lives in a tiny town in which there are crappy jobs, she can of course move to the big city and get a good job. This is just like how Xenotech Inc. can move from the big city with huge labor costs to the small town with low labor costs, right? Wrong: whereas Xenotech can make the move decision based purely on the bottom line, Lisa has got to think about her ailing grandmother, about the home that’s been in the family for three generations, about her love of the land. She’s got to think about whether, with her miniscule bit of capital, she’s going to be able to make the transition to the big city successfully. Yes, workers do this all the time, but the majority of workers don’t: the majority of workers have too many social ties that prevent them from matching the mobility that employers can show.

The truth is, there IS no invisible hand. The market is one force in the world, and it does a lot of good; but there are other forces that act on people’s lives, and they’re equally important. If we leave such matters entirely up to the marketplace, we deny essential aspects of folks’ wellbeing.

Libertarianism, by focusing too heavily on the magic of the marketplace, fails as a reasonable and ethical social arrangement.

I’ll close with an apology: before, when I said that I found most libertarians to be either selfish or naive, that was uncalled for, and I apologize.

Daniel

Well, if minimum wage were abolished, some companies would discover that they could make more profit by paying less than minimum wage…they would do so, and then they would indeed make a huge profit.

Until other companies started joining in. Sure, in the beginning it would lead to profits, but sooner or later, no one would be able to afford your products since no one would make enough.

Some companies would discover that the price point at which profits are maximized is if they RAISED, or at least didnt lower, prices, in hopes of attracting a smaller but discriminating crowd, due to the staggering disparity in the wage structure. Thus, by the laws of supply and demand, those companies will sell, and thus produce, fewer goods than before.

I fail to see how fewer goods being produced leads to a better economy, no matter who gets them. Furthermore, it isn’t even economically efficient, since many formerly mass-produced goods will become specialty luxury items, and will lose economies of scale.

Nearly any way you can look at it, if that specific scenario played out, the economy as a whole would be considered worse off than before.

Hmm…because whereas there are more unskilled folks looking for jobs than there are unskilled jobs, there are more skilled jobs than there are skilled folks?

Here’s an experiment which you oughtta try with a group of 30 people or so. Pass out twenty-five slips of paper that say, “Employee” on them. Pass out five slips of paper that say, “Employer” on them. (you always have more employees than employers). Tell the group that anyone who brings a matched pair of slips to you gets a million bucks, and that people can buy and sell their slips, but they gotta honor any deal they make.

If folks play the game to win (i.e., to get the most money they can), the fair market value of the “employee” slips of paper is exactly one penny. That’s because the employees are in competition with each other.

You can change this to real-market conditions by giving the million bucks to anyone who brings up one “employer” slip and four “employee” slips. That way, there’s only five employees who lose out. Still, their presence reduces the value of employee slips to one penny.

And that’s the situation at the bottom of the labor market. Higher up in the labor market, the situation is a bit better: employers have a hard time finding themselves a good programmer, or a good nurse, or a good attorney. But at the bottom, unskilled workers are competing against one another, and wages will go to the lowest level at which a worker can support herself, absent an enforced minimum wage.

Daniel

Why do you think starting up companies is difficult or requires tremendous capital? Sure starting up some hi-tech company is difficult and expensive, but what’s so difficult and expensive about starting up a small restaurant or gardening, etc. business? And what about other established companies moving in? They can afford to run with a loss too. In any case once the company has driven out all competitors and think about lowering wages, new competitors will pop up. Also what hinders the workers from seeking employment in other branches? What the company at most could hope for following such a strategy was ending up with all the crappy workers no one else wanted – that’s no way to run a successful business.

A 10-year contract huh? And how many of the workers do you think are going to honor that? And what kind of motivated workforce do think they’d end up with if they tried to force them?

No, a (high) minimum wage ensures they’d never get a job in the first place. This is what has been observed to happen in Denmark with a fairly high minimum wage ($16/hour I think). All the jobs that aren’t economical at such wages are simply not done – which has riddled us with a high permanent unemployment and a large pool of nearly unemployable people. You think these people would be better off having no work, than a work paid below the minimum wage?

You think it’s easy or inexpensive to move a factory across country? People are way more mobile than an Intel fab at $10.000.000.000,-

In any case, this, and the rest of you points, rest of the faulty assumption that there’re such things as jobs which require absolutely no skills. In fact there’s no such thing. Even the most lowly jobs require a level of investment and trust on behalf of the company in the employee. If you treat your employees lousy and pay them a lousy wage you’re never going to be able to depend on them, and more often than not they’re going to be gone to better pastures before you’ve recuperated the investment of interviewing, hiring and training. Further as every good leader knows, enthusiastic people are way more productive and dependable than apathetic and resentful people. Companies are going to pay a fair wage because it’s in their best interest, and if they don’t they’ll soon find themselves unable to hire the neccesary people or riddled with an unproductive workforce.

Who said anything about leaving anything entirely up to the market? You think just because there’s going to be less state intervention, suddenly all other social ties are going to vanish?

Um, because there are fewer available workers in the more highly skilled occupations, so employers are willing to pay a premium for their services? In other words, employers have to compete for workers, and paying a higher rate brings in more applicants, so employers have the ability to pick and choose and assure themselves of a better quality of worker.

At the minimum wage level, you are talking by and large about jobs that just about anyone with a pulse and more than one functioning brain cell could do. The pool of available labor exceeds the supply of jobs, thus employers can afford to pay the low wages with the attitude “hey, you don’t like it, I’ve got a stack of applications on my desk. I’ll just hire the next warm body that walks in the door.”

Rune-

You ought to try living in the real world, where a potential entrepeneur needs to have enough start up capital that they can afford to have their business operate at a loss for a period of time- six months to a year, according to my Business Practices instructor, while the place builds up a clientele and a reptation in the community as a good place to eat. Your average working schmuck just doesn’t have that kind of bling, and would probably have a hard time getting a loan for it (the main criteria for getting any kind of loan seems to be proof that you don’t need one).

Or maybe I should just have said “What Left Hand of Dorkness said.”

Uh? What the heck is a Business Practices instructor? You should probably leave the school instruction books and go out a bit – to a restaurant perhaps. How the heck do you think normal people even manage? I don’t know how it is around where you’re at – but here normal restaurants and small shops are almost solely opened and run by the people at the so-called lower ladders (with a very high rate of unskilled and often illiterate immigrants).

Apology accepted. :slight_smile:

However, calling someone selfish isn’t considered an insult by all. Ayn Rand thought it was a virtue, and even titled one of her books The virtue of selfishness.

Business Practices instructor-

Um, he would be the guy who taught us about those trivial items as, W-2 vs. 1099 if you’re going to be working for someone else, how to figure how much capital it would take to start and operate a business, stuff like that.

Also a very successful spa owner who will be opening a second spa in January (building is currently under construction), so I figure the guy knows what he’s talking about.

As for these “normal” restaurants- you mean those little hole-in-the-wall joints that change owners about as often as most of us change our underwear?

Yeah, I live up the block from one of them. I have lived in this neighborhood for about seven years, and in that time, it has changed hands eight times. Nine if you count the black family who was planning to open a soul food place. The plan fell through, much to Mom’s and my disappointment. We love soul food. It has been seven different Asian restaurants, and, if all goes well, will soon be a Mexican place.

The statistic I hear bandied about most is that something like eight out of ten new businesses fail within their first year.

But I thought the whole point of minimum wages was so that an employee could support himself. You’re saying that there is a wage lower wich could do so?

But Ajax cannot raise wages so high for long. If wages are at poverty levels, they will not be raised to such astronomical levels so quickly. I think you are overestimating the power of an established company. You are certainly making some assumptions about their cash position. As you note later, there is also a pool of unemployed workers. If they really wanted to prevent Omega from starting a factory, they would have to hire these as well.

And equally has little to do with libertarianism. This still assumes a zero sum game in regards to employees and forgets about the unemployed you mention later. Additionally, it assumes far more elasticity in the wages that employees can afford to pay than is necessarily true. In your example above, why will Omega be able to afford 8 times the salary to its emplyees? Are they 8 times more productive? Can they sell their goods at 8 times the price? If you change your assumptions to a more reasonable offer of $0.28 an hour and a 2 year contract by Omega, will so many people really quit Ajax?

Well, I’m not sure you can paint all of the unemployed as the lowest teir of workers. Many unemployed are there because they are making a change, or otherwise looking for work above the lowest teir. Also, you have to remember that unemployment is not universally homogeneous. That is, as you point out, capital is more mobil than people. So, one community might have 8 or 9% unemployemnt, which another is closer to 2 or 3. If your bussiness is in the later, your wages will be driven up compared to the former.

I think you have underestimated the cost of moving a business from one location to another. I’ll grant that it is not exactly as expensive as starting one from scratch, but it is not far off.

I think that your 4 reasons why a market is not good enough ( however you would have characterized them) contradict each other.

Not as an existant thing, perhaps, but there is a tendancy for people to act in their own best interests and so collectivly achieve it.

Well, perhaps if you explained what these forces are, we could discuss them. I think you may find they are not as benificial as you think.

I agree with this. As John Mace said in the begining, “I don’t take a libertarian perspective because I think it produces the most material wealth, but because it produce the most freedom.

While I can understand your second definition, I cannot understand your first. What sort of principle is “the ability to satisfy one’s desires”? Without serious caveats, I cannot phathom what you mean by this one.

Without being flip or cynical I’d like to ask: could Iraq currently be considered a fledgling Libertarian society? Why or why not? And if so, is there a possibility that they might continue upon that path?

I’m not trying to divert from the topic. Although it is certainly a troubled place, since Iraq is largely unregulated it strikes me as something of a model whereby people are making their own way and somewhat Libertarian by default. Is this valid? It seems possible to me that the course of a Libertarian culture is no less likely than half a dozen other paths they might take once they gain sovereignty, thus I hope my query is applicable to the OP.

And please don’t turn this question into an argument about the American presence there or the ongoing conflict. Factor that in if only if there is no avoiding it, however, also please assume a reasonable transition to a true, united sovereignty before long for the sake of this question. I’m interested in how a definition of Libertarianism can / could be applied to Iraqi society.

No. Libertarian does not mean Anarchistic. IF you want to draw parrallels between Iraq and an unregulated environment, you’d be better served looking there.

Although I should say that no such analogy is really all that useful. Iraq is a prepressed society now occupied by a foriegn army. I’m not sure if any political or moral system is analogous to this.