Libertarianism vs liberalism

This is an x-post from a different thread.

For context:

Velocity: Liberals and conservatives both tend to be authoritarian.

LinusK: I disagree: in my opinion, liberals are anti-authoritarian.

Libertarians tend to see an economic system in which wealth flows from the poor to the rich as natural; liberals see it as constructed. A thing that is constructed can be reconstructed.

Grumman: That is the exact opposite of the truth. If participation in an economic system makes poor people poorer, the strictly libertarian position is that it is immoral to force them to participate - you may only use force to prevent somebody actively causing harm to others.

John Mace: [Responding to LinusK] No, they don’t.

Robert163: [Responding to Grumman] What other choice do they have? A self induced coma?


Me again.

I want to expand on what I meant when I said:

Capitalism is based on ownership. But ownership is a creation of law, and therefore a creation of government.

As a simple example: you may own your home, and the real estate around it. Nevertheless, if a plane flies above your home, there’s nothing you can do about it. You can’t charge the pilot with criminal trespass, for example, and you can’t negotiate a fee with the airline for crossing over your land.

What’s happened is that the government has limited or defined your ownership in your land so that your property rights stop somewhere below the altitude of the plane.

The government has limited your ability to enforce ownership of the airspace above your land (by preventing you from, for example, shooting the plane down with a Stinger missile) by limited and defining those rights

That the government defines and enforces property rights is true not only of ownership of land, but of air and water, and copyrights, patents, trademarks, corporations, bonds, and every other thing that you can own.

The ability to own, and the ability to enforce ownership claims, come from the government.

I’m going to add one more thing, and this is a test: Where does wealth come from?

Absolutely true. Stupendously important fact.

Capital, labor, natural resources.

And the productivity of those inputs – how efficiently they’re turned into valuable output – is overwhelmingly influenced by something else harder to define. We can call this something else “technology” or “knowledge” or “factor productivity” or the “societal system”. No single word is quite proper because it encompasses so much, including things like property rights. The point being that you can have two societies with the same machines (capital), the same energy reserves, the same working population with similar education levels and putting in similar amounts of effort, and yet supposing one of those societies has some stable/helpful form of government-enforced property rights, and the other does not, then the society with property rights will produce more wealth.

So in addition to the classics – capital, labor, natural resources – another very real source of wealth in our world is the social system, including more abstract things like property rights.

I like all of your post actually but will focus on this one point. Libertarianism is the polar opposite of communism, is it not? At least in very broad terms…
Well, didn’t Marx say wealth came from:

1- Natural Resources
2- The labor of the workers
I think I largely agree with him. Though, unless I understand him incorrectly, Marx overlooks the value of the “entrepreneurial spirit” and creation of small business’ and large businesses and similar projects. In other words, the person who starts a roofing company or a new airline company is contributing assets and skills that the majority of the workers are not. Also investing time and risk. And a huge personal investment. Like, putting their “whole heart and soul into it” instead of just clocking in and out and working 40 hours a week. (Or, in the case of the 1800’s, probably 50 or 60 hours a week). (Yes, I realize they did not have airplanes in the 1800’s… some people here can be very sarcastic, lol).

Libertarianism, as has been stated over and over on this MB, is a political system in which personal freedom is the highest value. That’s it. It is not even necessarily an economic system, although most Libertarians in the US would be considered free marketeers. If they see anything as “natural”, it would that wealth is created by the productive and innovative people in society, but it needn’t “flow” between any particular classes. Libertarians would resist any attempt by the government to manage the “flow” one way or the other.

Hello John, Good morning… I hope your day is starting (or ending) ok.

I think saying Libertarianism is a political system in which personal freedom is the highest value highly underestimates several real life practical values. In other words, I think it is a niaeve philosophical POV that not only does not take into account real life complications, but, specifically ignores them to make it’s point. I am not directing this criticism against you personally. I am vocal and specific in my criticism because this is probably my number 1 criticism of Libertarianism.

Deleted by user.

Libertarians are opposed to abortion rights (well, of removing Federal protections on abortion rights, which means abortion would be banned in a number of states if they actually got into power). They are generally opposed to federal protections of civil rights (including recently SSM). They oppose anti-disrimination laws, so their idea of ‘personal freedom’ includes the freedom to make ‘straight white protestants only’ rules. They also speak highly of the US in the 19th century as a model for society, when blacks were property at first, then later stuck under Jim Crow, and the US was continually waging aggressive, war against Indians (who weren’t considered citizens), and launched a major land-grab war against Mexico.

Libertarians certainly like the word ‘liberty’, but what they mean by it doesn’t actually match what most people envision when they see ‘liberty’.

The patron saint of liberalism in the United States is FDR. FDR also happens to be the closest thing to a totalitarian dictator the American System has seen. If you want to claim I’m out of date, Bernie Sanders is running on stale New Dealism in 2015.

Some, maybe, but the official position of the Libertarian Party is pro-choice.

[

Emphasis added. [url=Platform | Libertarian Party]And you’re out!](]Strike Two.[/url)

Just to add to that post above… The LP does not endorse government involvement in “straight white protestant only rules”, although they certainly agree that business should be able to discriminate in the same way that the US now allows private clubs to discriminate.

libertarianism isn’t a “political philosophy in which personal freedom is the highest value”. That’s so vague as to be ineffective even as a bumper sticker. Liberals believe they are achieving personal freedom by gross confiscation of wealth. Conservatives believe they are achieving personal freedom by creating a military style police force.

Libertarianism is a political philosophy in which the use of violent force is only appropriate in self-defense. Libertarians agree with the non-aggression principle, as Mr. Libertarian Murray Rothbard did. Following from this principle, libertarians cannot support a government monopoly in conflict resolution. Libertarians also do not agree that government is a legitimate arbitrator of property rights, chiefly because government is an aggressor against such rights.

So how does this work if two people claim ownership of the same property?

From wikipedia:

Libertarianism (Latin: liber, “free”) is a political philosophy that upholds liberty as its principal objective. Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and freedom of choice, emphasizing political freedom, voluntary association, and the primacy of individual judgment.

Form the Libertarian Party website:

*What is The Libertarian Party?

The Libertarian Party is your representative in American politics. It is the only political organization which respects you as a unique and competent individual.

America’s Heritage

Libertarians believe in the American heritage of liberty, enterprise, and personal responsibility. Libertarians recognize the responsibility we all share to preserve this precious heritage for our children and grandchildren.

Free and Independent

Libertarians believe that being free and independent is a great way to live. We want a system which encourages all people to choose what they want from life; that lets them live, love, work, play, and dream their own way.*

Also from that website (Party Platform):

*PREAMBLE
As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person’s right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.

In the following pages we have set forth our basic principles and enumerated various policy stands derived from those principles.

These specific policies are not our goal, however. Our goal is nothing more nor less than a world set free in our lifetime, and it is to this end that we take these stands.*

Non-coercion is certainly important, but it’s a means of obtaining maximum Liberty, not an end in itself, as Liberty is.

You made the claim that libertarianism is “a political philosophy in which personal freedom is the highest value”. This is so vague as to not to be of any use whatsoever. Liberals love " personal freedom", specifically one’s personal freedom from responsibility, personal freedom to access others wealth and so on.

The distinguishing feature of libertarianism is its prohibition on the initiation of force. This is a clear statement that no liberal or conservative can lay claim to.

Once you have achieved a state of non-aggression, or at least a state in which aggression is subdued to the actions of private individuals and the govt is unable to coerce, you have achieved maximum liberty. It will be imperfect because men are imperfect.

No, I cited sources. You just gave your personal opinion, which is, frankly, not worth much.

You are confusing the method with the goal. The goal is not non-aggression; it’s personal freedom. Libertarians define what they mean by personal freedom, so it’s only vague if you don’t take the time to read or understand what they mean.

-Murray Rothbard

https://mises.org/system/tdf/For%20a%20New%20Liberty%20The%20Libertarian%20Manifesto_3.pdf?file=1&type=document

What’s funny about my citing of this particular book by Rothbard is that was a kind of manifesto for the Libertarian Party. A party you cite flowery quotations from.

I will repeat, the phrase “personal freedom” means different things to a liberal. Why would you say libertarians are all about “personal freedom” when a liberal can simply reply that they have the same goal. You may as well say libertarians “hold a political philosophy that says Good Stuff is the highest value”.

You confuse goal with principle. There is no goal with libertarianism. There is only the principle of non-aggression. If non-aggression is achieved in all areas of life, and there are still some old-school American liberals hanging around saying they favor personal freedom through higher taxes and govt schools, where will your definition of libertarianism leave you? Confused.

[quote=“John_Mace, post:9, topic:732691”]

Some, maybe, but the official position of the Libertarian Party is pro-choice.

The LP platform says that government should stay out of abortion, but the LP’s 2012 candidate for president said that it should be left to the states - which would mean abortion bans in numerous states in practice. While Governor, he pushed for and signed a bill requiring parental consent for abortions for minors, which is starkly inconsistent with the platform you linked to. Gary Johnson on Abortion .

Libertarians do tend to try to weasel out of things a lot, but I think it’s fair to say that a reasonable number of libertarians support the position of the LP candidate on issues.

There isn’t even a link here, so I’m not sure how just saying ‘strike two’ qualifies as legitimate debate. Do I just say ‘unstrike two’ and win?

This has nothing to do with what I said. I said that libertarians tend to use the 19th century as an example of an era where personal liberty was higher now, in spite of the bad things going on at the time. I’m aware that it’s inconsistent with their stated principles, that’s rather the point. Libertarians talk a good game about ‘Liberty’, but when you start to look at things like their candidates, proposed ways to bring about ‘Liberty’, and the times they use as examples for how they’d like things to run, a very different picture emerges.

Actually, I’d say that the distinguishing feature of libertarianism is that it speaks glowingly about not initiating force, but has absolutely no problem with using force now to defend property that was acquired by the initiation of force in the past, and believes that past initiation of force does not matter at all.

What about me, am I “out”:

I think saying Libertarianism is a political system in which personal freedom is the highest value highly underestimates several real life practical values. In other words, I think it is a niaeve philosophical POV that not only does not take into account real life complications, but, specifically ignores them to make it’s point. I am not directing this criticism against you personally. I am vocal and specific in my criticism because this is probably my number 1 criticism of Libertarianism.

So the LP believes that if a business sets up a ‘straight white protestants only’ rule, the government should not enforce laws against trespassing by people in violation of that rule?