Lie Detector - Please help (urgent)!

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

What’s up everyone I need some advice here. First let me fill you in on the background story.

My daughter works at a check cashing place and has worked there for over a year now. She’s busted her butt hard to rise up to Assistant Manager position. I mean REALLY worked hard to get the role. In that whole time there was never really any problems in the store. But a few months ago after hiring some new employees suddenly there were a couple of money problems. On 3 different occassions $500 turned up missing from some employees drawers. Not my daughters drawers, but the drawers of 1 employee for $500, then a 2nd employee for $500, and then the 1st employee again for another $500.

They kept asking who did it, of course everyone claimed innocent. So the district manager of the company decided that he would make everyone take lie detector tests (polygraph). He told them that if they refused to take the test it would be grounds to fire them. And he said if they failed the test they would be instantly fired as well. Anyways I know everything about polygraph testing and how they are almost ALWAYS snaring innocent people with false results. But since my daughter is innocent beyond all doubt (not a thief) she insisted on taking in positive to clear her name.

So she took the test yesterday. From the start the guy administering the test was trying to psych her out telling her that her employers think she did it, that she’s to blame. Confess now and you will be let off the hook, etc. She’s like, whatever just give me the test. She took the test. One of the questions came back as if she were lying which was ‘Besides what you told me before the test of things you’ve stolen in the past, have you ever stolen anything else before?’. She said no to this and somehow failed. But when they asked her the main question ‘Did you steal the $1500 or any money from your employer XXX’? She said No. And she passed on that question. They asked her the same question 3x and she passed the main one every time, that she did not take the money that was missing.

Her test was labeled ‘inconclusive’. Another co-worker of hers was also labeled inconclusive. Amazingly enough they both failed the same question, and both passed the main question. Now one of the other employees who had a drawer short on money failed the entire test… Including the question of whether he took the money or not. He was told that his entire test was full of deception and the tester himself said he thinks that this employee was the one who took the full $1500. This is the same guy who was newly hired to the company right before the money problems began to happen… Imagine that.

But then today her boss called her back and told her they wanted her to re-test. She called the district manager and he said to her “If you didn’t do it then why don’t you want to take the test over again, what do you have to hide. If you don’t take it then it won’t clear your name and so far right now everything points to
you as being the guilty party. Why would you want to stay at the
company knowing that everyone thinks you are the one who stole the money.” - He kept saying that to her over and over again. This guy is like the manager of the whole company city wide while the owners live out of state.

Now she feels this whole thing is stupid, because the guy administering the test told her she didn’t fail and she didn’t pass. She was just ‘inconclusive’. But she did pass the important question. She feels that she already took the test and the one guy failed, so he should be the one they are focused on. The whole thing has made her very unhappy about her company and she wants to quit but the job market is so bad that there’s not much chance to get another job. Personally I have seen far too many instances of innocent people being falsely accused of crime via lie detector test and I don’t think she should put herself in the line of fire again. She took the test and that’s that.

If she doesn’t take the test, she MAY be fired. If she does take the test again she might somehow get screwed over by it. The test is nowhere near accurate. So what do you think she should do? I’m looking for some common sense here. Thanks!

2

I’d suggest having her attorney talk to the manager in question.

3

Under the Reagan Administration, laws were passed that limit what businesses are allowed to do in the way of lie detector tests. This goes way past that. Contact your State Legislator or Congressman, & ask about protection from this creep.

And have your kid carry a pocket tape recorder to work. If she gets “called into the office” turn it on first.

4

So I take it no one thinks ‘taking the test again’ is a good idea?

5

It’s my understanding that: 1) Polygraph administrators don’t try to “psych” people out and make them believe they are guilty; 2) You can’t “fail” or “pass” a polygraph based on one question. The test is administered to gauge your responses over a series of many questions, both mundane and incident-related. Having an emotional reaction to one question doesn’t make you pass or fail. Frankly, the whole thing sounds fishy to me. Perhaps you should have an attorney speak to them.

According to the U.S. Department of Labor Employment Standards Administration, The Employee Polygraph Protection Act does allow polygraph testing, “subject to restrictions, of certain employees of private firms who are reasonably suspected of involvement in a workplace incident (theft, embezzlement, etc.) that resulted in economic loss to the employer. Where polygraph tests are permitted, they are subject to numerous strict standards concerning the conduct and length of the test. Examinees have a number of specific rights, including the right to a written notice before testing, the right to refuse or discontinue a test, and the right not to have test results disclosed to unauthorized persons.” Also, under the Act, “employers are generally prohibited from discharging, disciplining, or discriminating against an employee or prospective employee for refusing to take a test or for exrcising other rights under the Act.”

Additional information on this subject can be found at your local office of the Wage and Hour Division, which is listed in the phone book under U.S. Government, Department of Labor Employment Standards Administration.

6

Call a lawyer. They love this stuff.

Seriously. If you are in my area I can point you toward one who would be delighted to adress this issue.

7

Oh, I’m in Pittsburgh PA. And she really should get a professional involved.

8

Call a lawyer, would be my advice.

9

Here is what attorney assistant said:

Since daughter is asst. manager she has more responsability so that’s why she is being given a higher degree of speculation. She should just go in and take the test again to clear her name. If they wanted to fire her they already would have.

She then went on to say basically their office couldn’t do anything right now. If the company terminates my daughter first, then we can call back and might have some kind of claim. We would have to give them the background again at that time and they would determine how to move forward.

What do you think of this?

10

More and more people are coming to believe that polygraphs are neither reliable nor fair.

Personally, based on the evidence that I have seen, I would never agree to take a polygraph, even if I knew I would be 100% truthful.

It seems to me that a number of things make your daughter’s situation even more precarious than normal.

The tester did not seem to be following normal protcols, in that he was trying to intimidate the subject. Being tested by a good tester is one thing–though what really constitutes a “good” tester? Rarely are the facts of a polygraph independently verifiable, which is why you have to do the polygraph. So maybe the “good” testers are just good at getting the results the people in power (that is, rarely the subject) want. But anyway, I would think that with a tester who doesn’t even follow basic ethical standards, the results of the test are entirely up in the air. I don’t know if he could be trusted to be objective.

Also, the way that the boss and/or the tester is interpreting the results of the test seems a little out of whack, too. Demanding retests of the inconclusives, it seems to me, is just going to result in more inconclusives. Or worse! Assuming that there’s an X% chance that an innocent person will test positive, the more tests an innocent person takes, the more likely it is that they will end up testing positive.

So I agree that going to a lawyer is probably the best course. Another possibility would be to see if you can get in touch with an expert on polygraphs, and see if they can point out irregularities in the testing. It might be that the boss will cave if you have some ammunition to show that the tests are not fair.

11

It looks like your daughter has a GREAT lawsuit.

Get a lawyer who specializes in this and bring the lawyer along.

12

This is from the American Polygraph Association section on Ethics:

I’d suggest that if the examiner acted as you described then s/he was not following his profession’s code of ethics. I’d have your daughter ask your employer if they have hired someone who is actually qualified to administer polygraph examinations. Ask to see credentials. Even ask to have a different examiner for the next exam. And indicate that she will likely have her attorney on hand for the next examination, if management actually feels a second examination is warranted. This might give management pause to consider whether they want to risk litigation over something that they’ve likely already resolved. If her manager’s head isn’t buried up his own rectum then he’ll probably say he needs to consider all factors or something like that and then use this as an opportunity to cancel the remaining tests.

She should do this is in a professional and confident manner that makes it clear that she’s protecting her own rights without attacking the company (which can be a bit difficult to pull off, so you may want to help her practice this at home).

Good luck.

13

What country are you in?!
Lie detector tests from an employer? That’s /legal/? That’s like claiming grounds for dismissal because someone has small hands and their eyes are too close together! Surely you can’t legally fire someone for not taking that test once, let alone twice.

I’m stunned.

14

Thanks to everyone who replied! It helped out.

My basic opinion so far on the situation is this:

I think the employer is trying to pressure everyone to test because the test isn’t really valid unless you can have everyone standing on 1 of 2 sides. The good side ‘passed’ and the bad side ‘failed’. If they were to move on the guy who failed for example and fire him? Their case would be very strong if they could point and say look he failed, but everyone else passed so he must be the one. But if there are people who didn’t take the test or people who were inconclusive then perhaps this guy who failed the test and is fired has a strong case to bring a lawsuit against the company saying look these other people might have done it too, not just me.

So anyways so far I’m leaning towards telling her she should just take the test again, clear her name. Worst case if they fire her she can persure some kind of lawsuit at that time. But definately before taking any more tests she should look into this company giving them out. Make sure the people are certified to administer the test and it’s not some mickey mouse operation. Unfortunately right now she has no real legal recourse as has been posted above the company has a right in the case of certain theft or loss of funds as has happened here. She has to actually wait until she is fired until she can look into an attorney.

15

USA.

I agree with you. Polygraph is a joke and there’s 1000’s of cases in the past where people who failed were later proven innocent beyond a doubt. But it seems like the company has law on their side in this instance so not much we can do about it.

16

Ahh, the land of the ‘free’ :wink:
The company sound like the most amazing morons. For the money they’ve probably spent on this nonsense, they could have installed CCTV to cover the tills.

Maybe she should suggest that at her next interrogation.

17

Ya know, if I’ve got people stealing from my company, I go to the police and ask for their corporate fraud division, instead of relying on an exam that isn’t admissible in court because it never works.