Lie down vs. lay down, and why my head may explode

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
61

You raise a good point about the difference between natural and computer languages. I’ll even acknowledge that another difference is that we have an innate ability to learn the basic structural elements of natural language, and typically do so at an early age.

But I maintain that there’s also a fundamental similarity between natural and computer languages, in that both are systems for encoding and communicating information. The ability of our meat-brains to deal with linguistic messiness and ambiguity is not unlimited and is easily prone to error. So ultimately the rules of grammar and semantics must be followed to a large extent, or communication fails. And this is not hyperbole; when I read the ravings of some illiterate lunatic on the internet, I sometimes literally have no idea what the lunatic is raving about. And how often are even literate, well-intentioned posts on this board misunderstood, not through anyone’s fault, but through the inherent messy ambiguities of natural language?

The difference between computer languages, and for that matter, other formalisms like mathematics or Boolean logic, and natural language, is that the former must be explicitly learned, while one can get by without formally learning language skills. The rules are fluid, and at some level seem not to matter very much. There seems in fact to be a prevalent belief, though rarely explicitly stated, that learning language skills is not important. And it’s precisely related to the fact that rudimentary language skills are innate. But the ability to express oneself well and effectively rises far above the rudimentary, and comes only from learning, reading, and practice. What we do learn in school is often ignored or soon forgotten, and indeed even the teaching of grammar is sometimes ridiculed as worthless pedantry, rather than what it really is: the first step in building the skills needed to optimally utilize the fundamental means of human communication.

And here are the consequences. 28% of Americans are at or below Level 1 literacy, which is the ability to read a road sign. At least half of American adults can’t read a book at an 8th grade level. Cite.

According to the National Literacy Institute it’s even worse:

  • 21% of adults in the US are illiterate (2022)
  • 54% of adults have literacy skills below 6th grade level
  • 45 million are functionally illiterate and cannot read beyond a 5th grade level

This is not an argument for elitism, it’s an alarm call on a serious problem. It’s fundamentally not about “lay” vs “lie”, or about whether one could or couldn’t care less. It’s a problem because it determines how and where Americans get their information and how it informs the decisons they make about their lives, including the decisions they make when they vote for their governments. It’s a problem because ultimately, literacy – or the lack of it – shapes the nature of our society.

62

Numbers from National Literacy Institute.

My personal craziness involves articles in which two numbers are given that don’t seem to match up. Innumeracy is rampant, even in writers and copyeditors.

“Cannot read beyond a 5th grade level” seems close to equivalent to “literacy skills below 6th grade level.” The latter may include writing skills but the two should correlate highly.

Yet there are a rounded 260,000,000 adults in the U.S. 54% of that number is 140,400,000. That’s wildly off from 45,000,000. Nothing in the linked article explains this. My guess is that it chose results from a range of surveys and studies that used different definitions and standards. That’s faulty research and reporting, all too common in popular reports on complex subjects.

I hardily agree with this. I would just add that not being able to understand numbers - which are everywhere from supermarket checkouts to crime statistics - compounds the problem.

63

There is a fundamental difference between learning to speak and learning to read. A child who has trouble learning to read is maybe a little dumber than average. A child who has trouble learning to speak has some kind of severe brain damage.

64

Once we get lay / lie resolved, let’s move on to hardily / heartily. :zany_face: :wink:

65

Thank you. I was feeling like Roger Rabbit when he hears, “Shave and a haircut…”

66

Fortunately for my ego, hardily is a real word that is appropriate in that sentence according to some dictionaries.

In a bold, courageous, or resolute manner

Bold, courageous and resolute, that’s me.

67

Hence my emoticons. You bravely took the road less traveled, while I took the easy, borderline cheap, shot to make a play on the abstruse distinctions in both your post & the OP.

I hope it was taken in the jesting manner intended. If not I sincerely apologize. Your prose is always well-written and worthy of admiration and emulation. Would that I could write so tightly.

68

I have previously asked for a cite on this - what evidence is that there

a) the current level of literacy is significantly lower than in the past

b) we know what the cause of this decline (if one has occurred)

69

No. No. It could be just a speech impediment.

I’m not brain damaged. I know. My Daddy had it checked :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:.

I hardly utter a word. If I do it is usually an expletive. Not really, I would screw that up royally. I know the words. I know how they sound. My mouth won’t say them. And no, person I don’t know, I’m not deaf and dumb or retarded(both of these things are said to me regularly, using those words)

Careful with generalizations.

70

There are several issues here. One is that I pulled those numbers from an earlier report from the same organization that may have stated those numbers differently, and of course different numbers can arise from different survey methodologies and different cohorts being sampled. I noticed after I posted that the link to the National Literacy Institute that I had copied from an earlier post was outdated and no longer working, so I changed it to an updated page while the edit window was still open. If you look at the current link, the 5th grade vs 6th grade level stats are supportable and not “innumeracy” at all, and are clarified in this statement in the article which is consistent with what I posted – apparently the 6th grade level of literacy is a major demarcation point:

54% of adults have a literacy below a 6th-grade level (20% are below 5th-grade level).

I’m not suggesting that literacy rates are declining. I think I’ve seen statements to that effect but it’s not a claim that I’m making. The point I’m making is that literacy rates in the US are appallingly bad, and the consequences are significant.

71

Thanks, but I boo-booed. (All nouns can be verbed.)

I did look at the current link. There’s a bunch of numbers on the page, but those are included.

Literacy Statistics 2022-2023

Literacy Data and its impact on the Nation

Illiteracy has become such a serious problem in our country that 130 million adults are now unable to read a simple story to their children

21% of adults in the US are illiterate in 2022

54% of adults have a literacy below 6th grade level

45 million are functionally illiterate and read below a 5th grade level

It’s a nitpick. The overall state of literacy is undoubtedly as bad as they claim and this should not diminish the problem in any way.

72
73

My philosophy, even as a pedantic canine: people who write well and have a strong command of language may use those skills to write whatever the hell they want, any way they want, and I’ll defend them! :slight_smile:

74

Thanks.

75

Are students still asked to read aloud in school? when I was in elementary school (mid-1970s) reading aloud was done daily in our reading time, and came up sporadically enough in other ways that everyone could anticipate being asked to do it about 12 times a week, and required to 5 times if you did it well, more if you were struggling a bit.

In just the second grade, everyone had to bring a favorite book into class to read to the whole class for about 15 minutes after lunch recess. These were expected to be the sort of “junior chapter books” that could be read through in about a week.

I teach fourth grade Hebrew at my synagogue. My students are usually quite bright, as evidenced by the questions they ask, their ability to reason their way to answers, and what they have retained from the previous year. But almost to a student, they do not read aloud well.

I’m not talking about their Hebrew reading. I mean when they are asked to read English. The things they are asked to read are either from texts designed for their age-level, or things I have written, that I have run through a reading calculator which estimates the reading level, and I always aim for slightly lower than where the class as a whole should be. I also do not make anyone read aloud in English. It is always voluntary.

Some of them already have phones, or watches that text, and most of them go to private schools. They can read. They just have poor fluency when reading aloud.

Is it not done anymore? or not done as often in schools now?

76

I probably read aloud 10 times over the entirety of my elementary school career. The idea of doing it 12 times per week is utterly unlike my experience.

Comfy-class suburban SoCal; started first grade in 1964.

77

I was in elementary school at about the same time, and it was common for the teacher to have us go around the room and have students take turns reading a couple of paragraphs from one of our textbooks. This was one of my least favorite parts of school because of how bad some of the other students were at reading (and even most of the better ones were more annoying to listen to than just reading it myself).

78

In English, with its non-phonetic spelling and myriad of accents, it is especially important to practice reading the words out loud.

Same goes for Chinese, Japanese, etc. However, I have seen even a Classical Latin textbook advise the student to pronounce each sentence in the exercises. I assume it activates a certain part of your brain.

79

And Neil Diamond in the song Play Me had:

Song she sang to me
Song she brang to me
Words that rang in me,
Rhyme that sprang from me

80

I would have melted into the floor. No way I could have read aloud.

:frowning: