Life with an “Alternative” fuel vehicle

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
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This thread is open to any vehicle not solely fueled by gasoline (Petrol for the international crowd)…

Diesels, hybrids, hydrogen fuel cells, any variety of Electric, human power, biodiesel, wood gasification, natural gas, propane (and propane accessories :wink: )if it’s not solely fueled by gas/petrol, it’s welcome in this thread

Basically, what’s life like for you living with a vehicle fueled by something other than gasoline?

Daily drivers only though…

I’ll start;

Vehicle; 2012 VW Golf TDI with 6 speed DSG
Odometer reading; over 52,000 miles (bought used CPO with around 50k original miles)
Engine; 2.0L turbocharged in-line 4 Diesel, 140 HP 236 TQ
Mileage; 30-45 MPG depending on driving conditions and how much fun I’m having

What’s it like living with a small diesel passenger car?
Basically like a standard gasoline car, but fuel is more expensive

Is it stinky?
No. Not when fueling, not when idling, not when driving, diesel is less volatile than gasoline, so it stinks less at the pump, as diesel is a lightweight oil, if it’s spilled, the odor CAN persist for a while, but as long as it’s not spilled, it’s far less “aromatic” than gasoline

Is it sooty or smoky, does it “roll coal”?
No, tailpipe emissions are extremely clean, I can wipe a finger inside the tailpipe and it comes out clean, if I do the same with my ‘07 gasoline Rabbit, my finger picks up lots of soot, admittedly the Rabbit has nearly 200,000 miles but is still on the stock exhaust (no small feat here in New England)

The TDI has a Diesel Particulate Filter in the emissions system that captures and reburns the soot particles away, particulate emissions appear to be less than the gasoline Rabbit

No it doesn’t “roll coal” either, that’s a stupid waste of expensive fuel anyway.

Is it noisy?
No, there is a very slight “diesel” sounding chugging idle (which I personally love) but it’s more like a quiet purring, under power, it’s audible but not offensive, at normal throttle, it’s extremely quiet, there are no harsh vibrations transmitted to the passenger compartment, it’s quieter and more pleasant than my 5 cylinder gasoline Rabbit (and I LOVE the trumpety growl of the I-5)

Is it slow?
Slow and fast and is relative, no the Diesel doesn’t have the top end high revving performance of a high strung gasoline engine, but it does have impressive low end torque and builds all its power on the low end of the RPM scale, you don’t have to wind it out to get usable performance, in daily operation, it has a far more usable powerband, it’s no highway screamer, but it’s a very satisfying overall driving experience, it’s not fast, no, but it’s not slow either, it’s just right for daily driving

How does it handle?
If you’ve driven any of the Golf platform cars, it handles just like every other Golf, crisp, precise steering, very tossable, ride is a little firm, but has very communicative Road feel, very much like the GTI, it’s a drivers car

I absolutely love it, for my purposes it’s the perfect daily driver, it gets great mileage, has a very capable, usable powerband, I love the instant and endless torque, it handles brilliantly it’s immensely fun and always puts a huge grin on my face, the versatility of the hatchback design is amazingly useful, much like a TARDIS, it’s Bigger on the Inside.

For my purposes, it’s the perfect daily driver, the ONLY thing I’d change would be to get the manual transmission version if I was to do it again, the DSG is an excellent compromise between automatic and manual, but it is a
Compromise, and I would greatly prefer the manual, it was outside my price range though

The biggest differences I’ve noticed are the gobs of torque available right off the line, better overall performance than the Rabbit, and the fact that I now only have to fuel up every other week, rather than every week or sometimes even twice a week.

I’m sold on diesel passenger cars, now all we need is to get the “opposing piston” diesel approved for passenger cars, a 3 cylinder engine producing nearly 300 HP and mid 400 TQ with even lower emissions due to the cleaner burn

What’s life like with your “alternative” fuel vehicle?

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Oh, forgot one more thing
What’s the range per tank?

It depends on roads and driving conditions, but it generally estimates the range as around 510-530 miles per tank, with the Rabbit, I was lucky to get over 320 best case, average was around 240-260

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I’ve owned my propane powered Chevy G10 van since 1999–works about the same as a gas powered one aside from the fact that I can leave it sit for months if I’m driving one of the other cars and it doesn’t get shitted up from manky gas in the tank. Mileage is about the same as an equivalent gas engine of the same era (it’s a 1989, 5 liter V8 with two 18 gallon tanks on board) and the only weirdness is getting it fuelled sometimes but propane tanks are super common at gas stations in the PNW and there’s always propane available at a U-Haul. I have a propane bottle for my house so if I’ve been running the van I’ll have the guy fill it up too along with the main tank and the BBQ tank when he comes by.

I bought it with 91,500 miles on the odometer (which only goes to 100,000 so no way to know if it was on its first round or not) and have put about 170,000 miles on it since then and it’s got good compression in every cylinder and always runs when I need it to, might have to charge up the battery when it’s been sitting but otherwise it just gets up and goes. I’m hoping some younger member of the family takes an interest in refitting it as a camping vehicle, that would be awesome. I love my old Time Bomb.

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Not exactly an alternative fuel car, but I have a GMC Terrain which can run on E-85 ethanol. I happen to like E-85, and I’d be happy to run all the time on E-85. The only problem is the vehicle consistently gets 25% less mileage on E-85 than on regular (which around here is E-10.) The only places I’ve ever been able to find E-85 at a cost-equivalent basis to ordinary E-10 is some gas stations in Ohio.

That is, if I can find E-85 at all. Enterprise Rent-A-Car was originally a big proponent, so they subsidized at least one station near every office around here to install a separate tank and pump for E-85. Let’s just say their intentions were good.

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Been love’n my Prius.

Ironically, the only drawback is that I’ve almost run out of gas a couple of times. Mainly because I’ve fallen into the habit of NOT paying attention to my gas gauge.

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I drive a Tesla Model 3.

It has 315 miles of range, which I actually get if I drive the speed limit. However, normally I reduce the charge limit to extend the battery life, so it’s more like 270 miles.

I’ve spent less than an hour in the past year at charging stations. And that’s despite taking reasonably long trips. I keep the car topped off at home, so every morning I have a full “tank”. Even in expensive CA, I pay about 1/4 the cost per mile compared to an equivalent gas car. About 2.5 cents/mile.

It handles great; on par with my previous BMW. But what I like most is the instant power response. At any speed, under any conditions, if I floor the accelerator the car responds immediately. There’s no downshifting, no turbo lag, no anything other than instant torque. And the car doesn’t make a huge racket while doing so. Occasionally I race people by accident: I’m at a light, it turns green, I give it some “gas” without thinking too hard about it; only to realize that there’s a Camaro or someone squealing his tires and redlining his engine behind me, and who passes me only after I’ve reached the speed limit.

Unless things go very wrong, I will never drive anything but an EV as a daily driver. Once you drive one, every ICE car will remind you that most of their components are actually terrible workarounds for the inherent flaws in internal combustion. Every transmission is a workaround for engines having a narrow power band. Exhaust systems are there to reduce the horrid racket, and to move the poisonous exhaust to behind the car where it at least won’t affect the occupants. The clutch or torque converter is there because the engine doesn’t work at all at zero RPM. And so on.

So no, I’ll never go back. I’m not exactly a car guy, but I am one that appreciates elegant engineering in any form. Experiencing an EV has invalidated whatever appreciation I once had for ICE vehicles.

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My daily driver* – 17 Ram 2500 diesel crew cab long bed pickup. Life isn’t much different from its former gas counterpart beyond watching the DEF gauge. I fill the DEF at the half tank mark, every 4000 miles or so. The only big difference is when towing in the mountains with the exhaust brake. It’s a breeze compared to the old gas truck where I had to downshift and be careful with brakes. I just set the cruise control and forget about it now.

Mileage: 23 mpg hiway, 19 mixed. Range is slightly over 600. Towing 12K lbs, it gets about 11 mpg.
Wife’s daily driver – 13 Camry hybrid. No real differences except it’s hard to tell when you’ve “started” it. All that happens is the dash wakes up and a few lights come on. No noise until you’re halfway down the driveway.

Mileage: 40 mpg all around. Doesn’t seem to matter whether city or highway.

*For a few more days. Retiring this week (partial week) and it’ll probably spend more time parked. I grew weary of the fire-breathing F150’s riding my ass in commuting traffic and decided to drive the Nimitz for the last few months – better for my blood pressure. I still use my Corolla on weekends, and will return to it once I’m not driving in rush hour anymore.

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In the UK and Europe diesel is hardly “alternative”. One stat I saw said 2 out of every 5 passenger cars in the UK is diesel.

My previous car was a BMW 120d. It had a 2 litre turbo-diesel that produced around 170 bhp. On a steady run it would get over 50mpg and had a range of 500 miles or so.

Current car is a BMW i3 BEV. It’s an earlier generation with a smaller battery so the range is only around 70-75 miles. I work from home and only do a little over 1000 miles/year so range isn’t an issue. If I need to make a long trip I rent a petrol or diesel car. The power of the i3 is about the same as the 120d but acceleration is much quicker.

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Until recently I drove a Lexus CT Hybrid. Got great mileage out of it in city commuting, not so great on long journeys. One major issue was how quiet it was - pedestrians and cyclists just can’t hear you, so you have to be their ears as well as your eyes, = often someone will just step right out in front of you.

I’d love an electric car next, but it just isn’t practical - I live in a terraced house and only have on street parking, so I’ve nowhere to charge it. So I guess I’ll be going back to a hybrid - at this point in time, I do feel obliged to try and do something for the environment.

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I bought my Prius mainly for the increase range per tank. It’s especially useful when I am on a road trip, especially out west because in the western mountains you need to fill up at a bare minimum 50 miles before you run out, and so multiplies the effect of getting 100 more miles to a tank.

I don’t think its computer is optimized for mountain driving, though. On any decline of 1000 feet or more elevation loss, the battery maxes out and any regenerative braking after that is lost, and to add insult to injury, the ICE needs to run every few minutes to keep itself warmed up, so when I finally hit the straightaway at the end of the hill, the computer refuses to let me burn off the saved energy and goes into “warm up ICE” mode for a minute or so. Just in time for the next hill.

ETA: there should be a “mountain mode” button which will always use the battery to boost the power and will turn of the warm up cycle, that way the battery will not be already 3/4 charged when I am at the top of the hill and I’d be able to burn off some of the energy I do get once I reach the bottom.

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I’ve had two diesel vehicles in my life, an '84 F-250 and a 2000 Ram 2500. Both got remarkably good fuel economy for their size/weight, but both cost more to maintain than their gasoline counterparts. e.g. they had much higher engine oil capacity than the gas engines (10 quarts for the 6.9 in the F-250, 12 quarts for the 5.9 in the Ram,) fuel filters had to be changed regularly since they also doubled as water separators (and cost $Texas,) the F-250 required regular replenishment of a coolant additive to prevent cavitation damage, oh, and glow plugs never lasted long on that thing thanks to the “dumb” controller. Oh, and if you wanted them to start relatively easily in the winter, add a good bit to the electric bill to account for their 1 kW engine block heaters.
and diesel fuel dispensers are universally filthy. the fuel’s low volatility means it doesn’t evaporate away like gas, instead leaving an oily film all over everything. and that can be a safety hazard; once after I refilled my Ram when it was raining, I didn’t realize I had a slick film of water and diesel residue on my shoes. I shifted to reverse and right then my foot slipped off of the clutch pedal; instead of stalling, the truck shot backwards. Luckily there was nothing and no one behind me.

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Just beat my last mileage “high score”!

45.1 MPG on hilly, narrow 2 lane secondary roads with a speed limit from 25-45 MPH, and I wasn’t babying it or “hypermiling”, just driving normally

It seems like the fuel economy keeps getting better with every fuel up, more probably I’m simply adjusting to the diesel driving technique, the power is all down low, so no need for wasteful revving or high RPM driving

I was typically taching around 1200 to 1900 RPM, most of the time closer to 1200, and it generally idles around 1000 RPM, so for most driving the engine is barely off idle

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Model 3 here as well, previous car was also a BMW, 435i to be exact. I have the performance model 3, its handling trounces the 435. Acceleration is no comparison; the last time I drove the 435 I thought it was broken. It’s not, there’s simply no comparison in responsiveness between an EV and ICE, especially a turbocharged ICE like the 435, with its inherent turbo lag.

I am a car guy, and I’ll never go back, either. I was a manual transmission die-hard. I loved the spool of a turbocharger and the burble of an exhaust, I loved a perfectly executed heel-toe downshift. I was very apprehensive about an EV, but I felt it was the future, and I fell in love with the car when I test drove it. I still have the 435, and have had zero desire to drive it since purchasing the Tesla last February. (For sale, isn’t this a great pitch??)

I get a few questions regularly:

“Isn’t it slow, though? My car has 270 horsepower!” - No. This is no Prius. The performance 3 has 473hp and they all have 10ms torque response. It does 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, reliably and repeatably, drama-free. There’s only one gear ratio so there’s never any waiting for shifts. It just goes.

“How far can it go? Don’t you worry about running out of power?”. No. I never think about it for the vast majority of driving. I actually had more range anxiety in my ICE car. Like Dr. Strangelove said, you can plug it in at home and you start off “full” every morning.

“Don’t you have to sit around waiting for it to charge all the time?”. No. Again, the vast majority of people will only ever need to charge at night while they’re sleeping. Even a road trip doesn’t require a lot of extra stops. While it doesn’t require a lot of planning, you will spend less time charging if you do so. abetterrouteplanner.com is great for this. I took a round trip from Boston, picked up a friend in RI, and then drove to Bethlehem, PA, and then made the return trip. I charged to 100% at home, we stopped at a supercharger for around 10 minutes on the way to PA. We stopped for 15 on the way back, when we wanted coffee and a snack anyway. We did stay in a hotel with free EV charging, which helped.

ETA: “Doesn’t that raise your electric bill a ton?”. Yup. Here in MA our electric rates are terrible, 3rd worst in the country. I pay about $120/mo more on my bill. But I’ve also driven nearly 2,000 miles a month since buying it, which would cost around $275/mo in gas on the 435, plus another $100 synthetic oil change. And about half the time I’ve owned it was in winter temperatures, which aren’t ideal for an EV. So this cost represents nearly the worst case.

So yes, it’s slightly less convenient on a road trip, but not really. This is vastly outweighed by the autopilot functionality, which can make a trip a LOT less taxing. If you could have a gasoline car automatically topped off every single night at home so you never have to stop at a gas station, with the tradeoff being you can only use specific stations on a road trip, thus having to plan ahead? I think most people would.

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I just got a Jaguar iPace after 7 years driving a Volt. I don’t think I was ever really a “car guy,” but I’m turning into one now. 235 mile range, quiet, powerful, luxurious.

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2000 Honda Insight (first generation), manual transmission. The manual version has higher fuel efficiency relative to the CVT version due to the ECU on that model permitting lean burn. My typical in-city mileage is 40-45 MPG, with 55-60 at steady highway speeds. The battery is old which impairs efficiency, and I’m not sure if I want to replace the battery (~$2000 for a new high-capacity pack) or work out a good deal on a BMW i3. The typical range is about 550 miles on its 13 gallon tank.

Its small size and light weight is overall very advantageous for commuting and maintenance costs. I have another car that covers the Insight’s shortcomings, so it works out well.

It is slow, though, and my left leg hated my old commute of 40-50 minutes of heavy stop-and-go rush hour traffic.

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I also am a die hard manual transmission guy. I just bought a brand new Miata a few months ago, but once I get the sports car bug out of my system I am seriously considering an EV for my next car. That will be several years down the road anyway, so more than likely EV technology will have further improved by then. But anyway it is reassuring to hear that you like yours even being a manual guy previously.

I’ve never driven a Prius before, but I’ve always thought it wasn’t that they’re inherently slow, but that their instrumentation encourages the driver to drive in the most fuel efficient manner possible.

That’s a good point that I hadn’t thought of before. I’m one of those people who, when the fuel gauge in my ICE car gets below a quarter tank, goes “Oh no, gotta fill up soon!” Really that’s just a different kind of range anxiety.

Do you not have time-of-use rates where you are, with cheaper rates for using power at off-peak times? They just became mandatory here, but you could could voluntarily switch to a time-of-use rate plan for years around here, and pretty much every EV owner did.

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As a car guy, I’m really liking what I’m hearing about the Tesla, I just wish the infrastructure in Maine/NH was better, I see the occasional Tesla around town, but they’re not all that common, and most have Massachusetts plates anyway:vomit:

(I loathe Massachusetts…)

I also wish they weren’t so bloody expensive, even a stripped base Model 3 is far outside my price range, and I refuse to get back in car payments.

Thanks for the real world data on them, I’ll have to enjoy them vicariously for now, thankfully I absolutely adore my Golf TDI

Does Tesla plan to make a hatchback like the Golf at any point?

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I’ve had the misfortune of driving a second and third gen Prius, and speaking as a car guy, these are the faults I see;

The tires are narrow, low rolling resistance, high pressure tires with a tall sidewall, they sacrifice traction, grip and sidewall flex (lots of body roll) to reduce rolling drag and increase fuel economy, they compromise handling and cornering ability to gain fuel mileage

The powertrain is geared for economy, reducing throttle response, and the CVT is geared for economy, not performance, even in “power” mode, performance is seriously lacking

The suspension is set up for a comfortable ride, not precision control

It doesn’t corner well, accelerate well, or have any road feel, it’s floaty, soggy, and has serious steering lag.

It’s not designed for that anyway, it’s designed to squeeze every subatomic particle of energy from every drop of gasoline, and for that purpose, it excels completely, it’s a grand slam home run!
It’s just no fun to drive, at least for me, I am most definitely not in the target market

I haven’t driven a gen4, how does it compare, as a drivers car, to gen2 and Gen3?

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“Like” is an understatement, I’m obsessed. Prior to the 435i, previous manuals were: Porsche 914, Isuzu Pickup, Saturn SL, Toyota MR2 Spyder, Audi 200TQ, Pontiac Grand Am, Audi A4, Toyota Matrix, and a VW GTI. I’d take the Model 3 over any of them. Based on driving pleasure alone, it would be a very close tie with the MR2.

Point is, I haven’t had any anxiety after the first couple weeks, once I learned the trip estimator was trustworthy. Road trips require planning ahead, but they do anyway. I already need to plan where to stay; the only adjustment now is I favor places where charging is available, and depending on the trip I may have to plan charging stop(s) on the way.

Sadly we don’t have TOU billing in MA yet. I was able to save around $.03/kWh by switching energy suppliers, but our delivery costs are higher than our service costs here, and delivery costs don’t vary by season. Hawaii consistently and unsurprisingly has the highest electric rates in the USA. The 2nd-5th high spots tend to vary between Connecticut, Alaska, Massachusetts and Rhode Island. For others in MA that want to save those few cents or purchase “greener” power, the commonwealth has a web site here that will show alternate suppliers available in your area.

Sorry my home is so unpalatable to you. :cool: The supercharger network isn’t terrible in the southern parts of NH/ME. Remember, though, that you don’t need to worry about the charging infrastructure near home, so much as the infrastructure on travel routes.

Tesla has no plans for a smaller hatchback that I know of. Model S is technically a hatchback, but not the sort you’re thinking of, and at a higher price point than the 3. They do have the Y coming out, but that’s more of a crossover/small SUV. VW does make the e-golf, I don’t know a lot about it but do know the range is much less than a Tesla, iPace, etc.

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We’ve chatted about the PriusV I’m driving in another thread, so I won’t repeat the stats etc., but I really like the car. My gas bill is half what it was in the Toyota Matrix, and it is a quiet car, just about silent much of the time, which we like a lot. I do a fair amount of hilly driving, both in the short daily hauls and regular trips (about every 7 weeks) up and down the Coquihalla Highway, aka The Highway Thru Hell, according to the eponymous tv series. Never had a problem doing (okay, I admit it, exceeding) the 120 kph speed limit or merging or passing. Yes, I drive more like Mr. Magoo than Mario Andretti, but I do’t dog it on the Coq and still average 5.6l/per 100 km up and down. The “power” setting gives lots of zoom for merging, even though it is more or less a setting for the accelerator and computer: it doesn’t inject nitrous oxide or open the carbs or anything to actually increase the available power, just makes the accelerator more sensitive.

Looking seriously at the Prius Prime for the next car, as they don’t make the PriusV any more. Handling isn’t much of thing for me; the PriusV turns when I want it to, it’s nimble enough, much better than the Ford Probe I had years ago, but I expect Ladas and Yugos were better than the Probe. As you noted in the other thread, roughly, it’s horses for courses, and we’ve liked the PriusV for its room and mileage.