Lilith (does modorator read?)

When Lilith did not want to submit to Adam and left the garden she is said to have continued to retaliate against the rest of mankind (but no one except her and Adam exist as of yet). In my eyes, that would make sense to hate the children of Adams decent, considering that all females will be taught to submit to men or be banished, and then further considered evil (for not submitting). It also seems sensible to me that she would take her independence, and since Adam is her equal (a belief that she values) she would have no problem with his independent choices so long as they don’t hurt her own independence. I would also see a good reason for her to prevent this human world to be over run with over bearing males (or females), taught to be so by Adam. Only for this reason would I conclude that she would ever choose to kill, further more if men have wet dreams maybe they won’t force women to submit to them. My conclusion is that certain script gives her a bad name to convince us that she is evil for her desires, and that the script is the reasoning we should fallow, further be frightened to follow these scripts.

I am not sure how ‘old age’ the religion(s) that depict Lilith as a goddess dates back. While watching the history channel on this topic it mentions that they (writers of sacred texts) took older gods and stories and changed them to suite and create the books (sacred texts). For instance in Genesis (omg I misspelled it and on my spell check the first option is genitals… coincidence?) Satin is never mentioned. It is merely a serpent that seduces (In the original text, both Adam and Eve, not Lilith right) with out any mention of Satan. Some believe they are depicting an older god (A goddess serpent that gives birth to mankind/ earth) as Evil as to persuade the readers to believe not only that script they are reading is most correct but, that the older god of life is now evil.

If that is the case my thoughts lead me to believe that the serpent was letting the humans in on the fact that they are being manipulated by the newer (Biblical) God to do only his bidding and (what?). What did the Christian god want out of humans? To learn about Him, never have sex (accept for procreation) and enjoy His garden as humans play naked in it? If any one would like to continue this debate, email is available. Thank you for reading! -Elaiy

Hi Malvina.

It’s customary in this forum to add a link to the column you’re referring to. No problem, I’ll help you out this time.

Rico

Of course there was no mention of satin. Weaving wasn’t invented until much later.

It says quite clearly in Genesis 1 “God created Man in their own likeness, male and female created he him”, following the ‘seven days’ (of which only the first actually says ‘God created’ and all the rest are ‘brought forth after its kind’ and the like). Complicated by the fact that Hebrew has only two genders but does allow some words to switch gender in the plural or take the wrong adjectival agreement. In other words, a language with formal gender can be played with to incorporate both in a way a that a language without cannot.

By Genesis 3 we have a second creation in reverse order starting with Adam formed from ‘the dust of the earth’ ('DM means ‘clay’) who is ‘alone’. The name of ‘God’ in Genesis 1 is Elohiym (a plural). In ‘Eden’ it is YHWH. By the time the Bible is written down these are taken as different names for the same single deity but there’s no certainty that they were originally and much more likely that they were not because where YHWH is referenced are much more ‘folksy’ tales where he is often ‘wrathful’ and ‘vengeful’ and very much stomping around on this earth while references to Elohiym are much more elevated and philosophical in style.

There was another way of interpreting it though it does not mention Lilith by name. Instead it uses the Greek Sophia meaning the Wisdom of God depicted as a deity in her own right.

In this heretical view, Man-Woman is the (spiritual) reflection of the Ultimate Unknowable whatever that all things are a manifestation of. But just as you don’t see atoms whizzing around in a cloud when you kick a table, so each degree of manifestation is ignorant of any ‘above’ itself - until you reach the human mind which is capable of reaching back to the Essence, the ‘Elohiym’. YHWH is not the same, he represents the forces of matter and ignorant animal instinct which blind humanity to its true divine nature and keep us in ignorance imagining everything in the garden is lovely because we can’t imagine any better.

Sophia appears disguised as a serpent which leads the woman to Knowledge of the true divine human nature and she leads the man. The female occupies the extremes, both more intuitive and more material because of being the physical reproducer, than the male. If you read Genesis, you find that YHWH (Jehovah) throws the first of his many almighty tantrums because "Now they know they are gods like Us, knowing good from evil it is not just because they disobeyed, it is because they know good from evil.

This is a very strange response from a supposedly moral deity! Wouldn’t a moral god want his thinking beings to know good from evil? Maybe so - but Jehovah doesn’t! And he says why too: Now they know they are gods like ‘Us’. Therefore his equals, if not moral superiors able to judge him and realise that the garden is no garden at all but a place of horror that is going to take the rest of eternity to put right and bring into harmony with the perfection it developed from.

In fact, the Serpent is a widespread myth that occurs in other forms like the Golden Fleece and the Dragon’s Hoard. Genesis is unique in reversing it. In all other cases the Dragon guards the Treasure, either out of pure malevolence or to prevent human beings from acquiring it before they have the strength to use it properly.

The continuation is that Jesus is ‘second Adam’ (and sometimes Sophia’s brother) who comes to release us from material worship of blood sacrifices and endless ritual and taboo like Jehovah’s and to recognition of the true abstract divinity whose ‘worship’ consists of respect and compassion for each other and understanding of the cosmic unity hidden in material diversity. He ‘destroys the Temple’ because we are our own Temple, he ends sacrifice because his religion is about how we feel and behave and not all materialistic where breaking a tabu can be bought off (literally) with an animal sacrifice or a purification ritual that does nothing to change the inner person.

Jesus as a figure stands for the Christ in us and the Christ in us is our own divinity formed in the likeness of Elohiym (equally, a Buddhist would call it Buddha-Nature and even more tellingly, a Hindu Aatman which means both Soul and God).

This gets round how ‘God’ can be ‘loving’, ‘compassionate’ and so on and yet the Old Testament full of the most appalling atrocities (and punishments) attributed to ‘God’ - different names. Sometimes, the King James translates Al or Elohiym as ‘God’ and Jehovah as ‘The LORD’ but it is not consistent and there is often Jehovah of ‘something’, the most famous being Lord of hosts which is itself a misleading translation because ‘hosts’ there has a sense that was archaic even in 1611 of ‘Armies’. Might as well call him outright ‘Mars’ or ‘Ares’.

St. Paul says as much (I forget where) but it runs along the lines that whatever scripture confirms the concept of a transcendent compassionate Ideal can be accepted as genuine and what doesn’t is the work of Man, justifying some tribal squabble or ancient act of imperial expansion (and can be thrown away). Marcion (who was admittedly a proto-Puritan heretic) threw the entire Old Testament away and kept only an early version of Luke’s gospel but it was because of him that the church leaders sat down to decide what ought to actually go into the Bible. They have never agreed and some books have been taken out, some added later, Protestants for reasons unknown gone to a Hebrew version that the Apostles and their followers never used to 1500 years, the Roman church only settled it at the Council of Trent with a version different from the Orthodox - and there are books in the Ethiopian bible otherwise known only by name and in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Welcome to the Straight Dope Message Boards, Malvina, we’re glad to have you here. In answer to your last comment first, we’d prefer that discussion be carried out here on the Straight Dope Message Boards, so that many people can participate, rather than in one-on-one email.

Now, to address your first question (in your thread title): I’m the moderator of this forum and also the co-author of that Staff Report, and yes, I did read your post. Was there something specific you wanted me to respond to?

My general response is that you’re interpreting the legend of Lilith in your own, modern terms. That’s fine. There’s a long history to the legend, as noted in the staff report, and it’s evolved over time and continues to evolve. That’s one of the joys of lasting myths.

There’s another Staff Report on the evolution of the myth of Satan: What’s the deal with angels? - The Straight Dope - it’s a lonnng report, you’ll have to scroll down to near the end for the history of Satan. In short, however, in the Old Testament, satan basically means “accuser” rather than devil or tempter, sort of like a prosecuting attorney, and seems to be a title rather than a name. In the New Testament, the satan becomes personified. So, there’s no satan in Genesis. Sometimes a serpent is only a serpent.

Jerseyman, I’m not sure what your point is, since you cover a pretty wide range of topics, so I’m not sure where to respond. The question of authorship, editing, and authorizing the bible has been addressed in a series of Staff Reports. Here’s a link to Part 1 (who wrote the Pentateuch): Who wrote the Bible? (Part 1) - The Straight Dope which discusses in more depth your comments about different names for God. That will lead you to the further parts, covering (2) who wrote the Historical Books (Judges, Kings, etc), (3) who wrote the wisdom literature (Prophets, Psalms, etc) and (4) who wrote the New Testament, winding up with (5) who compiled the whole thing to the various versions we have today.

“Modern”? It’s just a rehash of dreary old 2nd-century Gnosticism.

Yeah, John, I was reacting to the “independence” notion which I suspect is not Gnostic.

And for me (as an Old Testament affecionado), heck, 2nd Century CE is pretty recent. :wink:

tee hee :smiley: I laughed at that, too. It’s so much easier to be taken seriously when you use the right words…

What version of the Bible are you using? I use KJV and, using technology, searched for the word “lilith” and nothing showed up on any scripture references.

Lilith isn’t mentioned in the canonical Bible. Her story is in various apocrypha.

And I’ll point out the thread you’re posting in is from 2009 so you may not get responses from the original posters.

Actually, there is a possible reference in Isaiah 34:13–15, in an otherwise unknown Hebrew word לִּילִית (lilit).

So you’re not taking sides in the owls vs ostriches debate?

I’m not remotely qualified. But one does not need to be a scholar to know that an issue is open.