Lion King/Hamlet

Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
1

From http://www.straightdope.com/columns/991224.html:

>>Think Hamlet, [Sito] said. “Zazu is Polonius, Scar is Claudius, Rafiki the Shakespearean fool. The father in the clouds is the ghost king appearing on the battlements…”

I see. So it’s “Hamlet,” except that Claudius doesn’t try to take the king’s wife,
Polonius is not a weasel, and doesn’t die,
and there’s a fool who wasn’t in Shakespeare’s play. And no Freudian overtones. And Claudius enlists the help of an army (Fortinbras’?)

Yep. Lots of parallels.

My favorite part of the “Kimba” song was the lilting “ah Kimba, ah Kimba, ah Kimba, ah Kimba” ad nauseum at the end.

2

When I read the column about the Simba/Kimba connection, I remembered the episode of The Simpsons “Round Springfield” in which a jazz-singer friend of Lisa’s dies. At the end of the episode, her friend appears in the clouds and is interrupted by by Mufasa from The Lion King, who says “You must avenge my death, Kimba, I mean Simba.” It’s an obvious reference to The Lion King, but is it also a reference to the earlier Japanese animation? You never know with The Simpsons and their inside jokes. The passage in question is also on The Simpsons sountrack “Songs in the Key of Springfield.”

3

The Simpsons is an obvious reference to the entire controversy.

I do find it depressing that Disney’s defense against ripping off THE WHITE LION is to explain that they were really ripping off HAMLET. This after all the hype that THE LION KING was Disney’s first original script.

“East is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.” – Marx

Read “Sundials” in the new issue of Aboriginal Science Fiction. www.sff.net/people/rothman

4

Please note that in recently produced copies of “The Lion King” the film is no longer touted as " Disney’s First Original Motion Picture Creation" or whatever. Possibly a very telling point.

There is a T-shirt circulating in the Anime community showing a mirror frame. On one side of the frame is Simba; on the other, Kimba. The caption reads: “Mirror, Mirror; On the Wall; Who Created Me; After All?” To the best of my knowledge, Disney has not challenged the manufacturer of this “unlicensed product”. It has been on sale for several years now. Very uncharacteristic of the Mouse’s Legal Battalion, hmmm?

“Show me a sane man, and I will cure him for you.”----Jung

5

I hate to be such a radical to contend that copyright laws are the tools of the establishment, but…

It is interesting that those who are the most adamant about intellectual property rights (Disney, Microsoft, etc.) are often the worst at appropriating other’s material.

They should stick to stealing public domain materials such as Shakespeare and Grimm as they have until now.

I have little unction against the Chinese supposed flaunting of intellectual copyright laws, as it is clear that materials that are stolen by Western outfits from Asian sources will remain just that, stolen.

6

Robroy – please don’t use words you don’t understand.

As to The Lion King/Hamlet, first of all, the so-called “Freudian content” of Hamlet is a myth. Moreover, a good many of the plot lines of Hamlet are obviously unacceptable in a Disney film. Nevertheless, the parallels are perfectly bloody obvious.

“Simba” is Swahili for “lion”.

Coincidences do happen in art. The parallels between the original Doom Patrol and X-Men comic books come to mind. (Two teams of superheros who are feared, rather than admired, by the public, both led by mysterious wheelchair-bound leaders with mental powers.) And, for the most part, the parallels between The White Lion and The Lion King are precisely the ones that no professional writer would bother stealing. I mean, does anyone really believe that professional writers sit around saying, “Dammit, how do we get another character into this story? Oh, wait a minute. I remember this old Japanese TV show that had a good idea – let’s give the hero a girlfriend!” That ain’t how the creative process works.

Now, if this were a case where Disney were accused of getting advance scripts of The White Lion and rushing into production in order to come out before the Japanese show, so as to look like the plagiarism went the other way (as Paramount did to Babylon 5), I could believe it. But where there is a 30-year lead, that’s obviously impossible.

Oh, and let’s not bring up the damned day-care center canard again. It’s the way the law works with trademarks – defend it, or lose it. Disney didn’t make the rules.

John W. Kennedy
“Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.”
– Charles Williams

7

A couple of things here.

First of all, the whole Lion King/Simba thing remind me very much of the “Love Is A Wonderful Thing” case with Michael Bolton where he was sucessfully sued by the Isely Brothers for “borrowing” bits from a song that he didn’t remember but probably heard in his childhood.

My point here is that if Disney and Bolton were obviously aware of the existence of the previous works, it seems to me that they would’ve taken the time and effort to change it enough so that no one would suspect anything. Only an idiot would name the main character Simba, knowing that an old TV series had a similar character named Kimba. And frankly, being about the same age as many of the animators, I remember the Kimba series being on the air, but only watched it once or twice, so there may be less memory of it than people think.

I suppose the only way for people like Disney and Bolton to avoid problems like this is to follow the example used by people going for their PhDs, and do a literature search first to see if anyone has done anything similar to what you’re about to do. Then, if you find something a little too close, change yours so that any obvious parallels are gone.

That being said, I think that the fact that the obvious parallels are there and weren’t covered over or changed, proves that it wasn’t an intentional rip-off of Kimba.

Second, about that “first original story” bit, what about “Lady and the Tramp”? I heard that that story was based on Walt bringing home a dog to his wife. Failing that, what about “The Aristocats,” what other story was that based on?

keg

8

The Simba/Kimba thing doesn’t mean anything. The list of cliche lion names consists of two entries: Leo and Simba (in that order). I even remember a Scooby Doo cartoon where a lion is called Simba. The animal’s-name-in-another-language system has been used by Disney before, too. In The Jungle Book, “Shier Kahn” means “tiger king” in some asian language. Likewise, “Baloo” means “bear”. This probably applies to the panther and snake, but I confess that I don’t remember their names. Obviously, “King Louie” doesn’t fit the pattern. Anybody know if “Nala” and “Rafeke” and those other names mean anything?

“I had a feeling that in Hell there would be mushrooms.” -The Secret of Monkey Island

9

Two comments:
[ul][li]"…the fact that the obvious parallels are there and weren’t covered over or changed, proves that it wasn’t an intentional rip-off of Kimba." (keg) Well, movie adaptations of stories (not just Disney’s) have never been regarded as faithfull copies of the original. Rather are used as inspiring ideas and then distorted as much as possible (for the sake of entertaining, they say). I need no examples, for anyone who ever read the book and saw the movie can tell they hardly resemble each other.[/li][li]What would Disney say if I come up with a children’s book of a certain young lion called Zimba, with a girlfriend Nana, a bird Tattoo, a dead father Mufata…?[/ul][/li]When I see a film where somebody says “you cannot prove I did it”, I know he is the bad guy and he did it.

Agudelo
"The answers are there, now we need questions…

10

Disney can deny that The Lion King is a rip-off of Kimba the White Lion, but does anyone think that if Tezuka Osamu was making his series in 1999, Disney would have any hesitation or trouble in suing him for stealing their ideas?

11

Disney has a track record when it comes to stealing scripts. A friend’s father recently fought and won against Disney over their theft of his script for what became The Air Up There starring Kevin Bacon. Frankly, I’d never admit having anything to do with that movie, but he did, and the settlement was in the high six figure range.

12

Many responses here…

Juan says, “When I see a film where somebody says “you cannot prove I did it”, I know he is the bad guy and he did it.”

Ah, but the folks at Disney aren’t saying “You can’t prove I did it,” they’re saying “It may look a lot like it, but we really didn’t do it.”

Once again I say that only an idiot would knowingly do something that close without covering up or changing any references to what they were copying.

Also notice that most of the uproar about the Simba/Kimba thing came from either Japan where the original was well known or from a small number of Japanese animation fans in the states. Most people in this country have no memory of Kimba, probably including the people who worked on The Lion King. On the other hand, given a large number of Japanese animators, you’d have a different story, since Kimba was a big phenomenom over there.

Little Nemo asks if Disney would have any problem suing Tezuka Osamu if the roles were reversed. I think that here we’re confusing two issues. One is the issue of whether or not the characters etc were stolen. The other is that of would Disney sue if the shoe were on the other foot.

That similar characters could be developed totally independently doesn’t necessarily imply that the “original creator” wouldn’t feel pissed enough to sue because of the similarity. But the fact that the “original creator” sues doesn’t mean that the other characters were stolen.

Coincidences do happen - especially in animation. Both Warners and MGM were working on similar treatments of Liszt’s Hungarian Rhapsody at the same time, independently of each other. They only found out about it when Technicolor accidentally mixed up the prints and sent the Warners copy to MGM and vice versa.

As much as we may want to believe that the big bad conglomerate is out to screw the little guy (and as much as it often does happen), sometimes it’s just a weird coincidence. And once again, I don’t think that anyone at Disney would be that stupid as to steal the story and characters and put the movie out hoping that no one would notice. Especially in this age of instant internet research.

But then maybe I give people too much credit for being smart.

keg

13

[[ Most people in this country have no memory of Kimba, probably including the people who worked on The Lion King.]]

That’s not true. I’ve asked a number of people in their 30s and 40s, and not only do most remember it, many still know the theme song by heart. According to an email I received from a guy who works in the field and knows some of the animators who worked on The Lion King, some of them claimed to be big Kimba fans, too.
Jill

14

Speaking of Shakespearean references, how come no one points out the similarities between TLK and “Henry IV, Parts I & II”. Simba is Prince Hal, Timon is Falstaff, Simba’s dad is Henry IV, and Scar is Hotspur. I even remember this being pointed out by critics during the original release.

I’m not on the “Disney is a thief” bandwagon, but I do believe that this is more evidence that they are creatively bankrupt. The only original animated features to come out of Disney this decade are the three CG films (Toy Stories 1&2, A Bug’s Life), which were all made by Pixar.

15

With all this discussion of Shakesspeare, I though I should point out that on several occasions Biily S. was “ripping off” somebody else’s story. The most notable example is Hamlet. This fact is covered in any Lit 101 class, which is where I first heard it.
All this brings me to a second point, which the Shakespeare’s works so perfectly demostrate: It isn’t the story you tell, it is how you tell it. It’s the language and rich charaterizations that make Shakespeare so wonderful. And – I’m taking a big leap here – The Lion King is another example of this. Whether it was a ripoff or not, it is still a pretty darn good movie. They may have copied characters, story outlines and even some motivations, but it certainly embellished far beyond the original. It is hardly a straight-up ripoff.
On a more personal note, you have no idea homw much it pains me to defend Disney.

16

Just to chime in on ripping off story ideas…

Isn’t there a show biz refrain about there only being 5 story ideas?

Let’s face it, good stories often invoke the same themes, same archetypes, and same symbology.

Also, I can understand how the story elements could play an unconscious influence on the writers. I once thought up a name for a character for a role-playing game - only to find out it was already used in the book that was the basis for the game. I had absorbed the name and admired it’s originality and creativity and forgotten where I had obtained it.

That said, it would probably be in Disney’s best interest to admit there are striking similarities and even if unintentional, probably more than a little influence.

The only problem I can see with adding a line thanking the Japanese author is perhaps that would open the door wider for a copyright infringment lawsuit or expectation of compensation. Thus Disney’s reluctance to admit even subconscious influence.

17

[[The only problem I can see with adding a line thanking the Japanese author is perhaps that would open the door wider for a copyright infringment lawsuit or expectation of compensation. Thus Disney’s reluctance to admit even subconscious influence.]]

Wasn’t it said, though, that the Japanese author said he’d be honored and flattered if Disney would admit to being influenced by his work?

18

With the advent of the Internet - there’s virtually no excuse for claiming lack of knowledge about precursors to an idea or product.

Do those who are the stupidest and have the worst memories get to steal more than those who remember - I think not.

The best artists acknowledge their debt - the worst think they are being original - probably through the above mentioned process whereby people are exposed to a source material and “forget” what it was.

I think this case is more simple than all that - financial standing indicates who has the where with all to sue.

19

forgive the delay, but my common sense finally kicked in and i have pasted this old e mail into the mb:
okay, this isn’t much, but i remember coming across an article by a british author wherein he slammed the lion king for exemplifying american arrogance as the allegorical lions in the “circle of life”— well, it seemed funny to me at the time, and ironic for several reasons: an englishman standing in judgment of any country’s king of the hill games— and his complete oversight in not seeing parallels to shakespeare’s richard III (disfigured rival to the throne seeks to rub out child successor), and so on, but then your column actually has disney workers alluding to a different shakespearean work. nevertheless, looking at the evidence in your article, having to combine bambi with hamlet, richard III, or fucking titus andronicus with a little romeo and juliet thrown in isn’t going to help-- it’s all just reaching when you consider that the whole thing was right there in one piece, the original kimba.
tk
to follow up, i would add that after viewing the opening seq. of the kimba show, even the sweeping visual of a flock of egrets/ ibises/ whatever has found its way into TLK-- and so i reiterate: there just can’t be that many coincedences. btw, don’t worry about whether you should give people too much credit for being smart-- it’s precisely the stupid ones who are most licentious.

20

Disney recently aquired the rights to many of the films of so-called “Japanese Walt Disney”, Miyazaki. (This man’s work is wonderful, BTW) When Disney released his most aclaimed film, Princess Mononoke, in November, many Disney animators stepped up to say what an influence Miyazaki was and is to them. Animators are very aware of the work of other animators (especially as far as Japan is concerned; it is known for it’s animation). Many are huge Anime fans. I find it very hard to believe that for all of the people who must have worked on TLK, no one noticed how close it was to TWL (whick is a classic, and may not be known to the general American public as well as to an animator).

I find it easier to believe that somewhere in the creative process, the “creators” of TLK might have been “inspired” by TWL. I am sure that Disney figured there was enough different that they could deny anything, plus, we’re talking about a 30 year old Japanese show/manga. Who is some small Japanese artist compared to Disney? How many Americans were likey to catch on anyway?

I may be biased because I am a huge Anime fan, but I am not alone in my thinking on this. Most people who have seen the two back to back agree there is something more than “coincidence” going on. Whether it was done on purpose or not, it’s hard to believe that there would be a Lion King without a White Lion.

BTW, someone else mentioned the “mirror, mirror…” tee shirt-- it also has the title of the movie: “The Lying King”.

Dizzy

You people have been holding me back long enough! I’m going to clown college!