I rest my case, an again as I said it dident take all that long to put together, its not so much the time, its the determination an the purpose, what I was fueld by was an awesome divine conjunction of…--------> Libra
No!No!
Don’t take such hasty decisions!
Aloha nuis 
I’m not convinced.
There are some on this board who think this majestic beast is inferior. I find such ignorance appalling. I am hopeful that you will get that new PC and intriplicate the data. Keep fighting the good fight!
OBut anyways…thanks for the appreciation, an I try not to let others who critisize me or the data get to far along the bad side of me…belive me, if I’m flamed first I vent an vent pretty badly (Which I’m working on tone-ing down)…but it actually feeds my determination an spruses up the competition…which again, is--------> Libra
I am a Leo :), and will always support a mission backed by facts, to establish superiority of lions. We need more people like you.
I don’t know. Due to a lack of authoritative factual citations, I think we’ll all just have to admit it’s a matter of personal opinion and agree to disagree.
Tigers vs. lions underwater: discuss.
Is there a religion that venerates lions? Sorry if I didn’t capitalize the ‘l.’
Pumas are probably the most adapted big cat for all terains an habbitats, he has killed animals such as bears for some time, theres even a video of a Puma punking out a Jaguar…heres a account of a Puma killing a black bear…
Cremony Life Among the Apaches 1868
One oft-mentioned tussle between a black bear and a cougar was apparently observed by Major John C. Cremony, who served with the U.S. Boundary Commission in the Southwest Between 1849 and 1951. Cremony, accompanied by Apache guides, had been hunting cougars along the Pecos in the vicinity of what is now Ft. Sumner when the group heard a dreadful but unidentifiable sound. Curious as to what could be making such noises and seeking out the source, they came upon a life-and-death battle between a cougar and a black bear. The bear was quite evidently not enthused about the encounter and would have liked to have broken off hostilities and gone away, but the cougar was apparently deeply intent upon killing the bear. After a number of skirmishes, the cougar successfully clawed through the bear’s vital organs. After despatching the bear, the cougar licked its wounds, took hold of the bear’s carcass, and dragged it to a more secluded place, where it began to cover the carcass for a later meal. It was at this point that one of the Apache guides killed the cougar.
I think it was Indian upthread who suggested this discussion be moved to Great Debates. I beg to differ. It should be moved to General Questions because My Lord is providing FACTUAL DATA, not opinions and anecdotes like those in the tiger camp are doing.
But in defense of the tiger zealots, there is a lot of misinformation available on the web . This comparison chart for example leaves the reader believing the tiger is superior–tigers are bigger, stronger, smarter, etc–clearly written by someone with a strong tiger bias, but it does help explain the misguided thinking of those who think tiger is king.
But one thing that is bothering me, My Lord, is the apparent sexism that is rampant in the lion kingdom. I don’t understand why the females do all the work raising the cubs and catching the prey, only to let the deadbeat males who sit around yawning the day away eat FIRST. It is not unlike battered women’s syndrome and is unacceptable behavior in this day and age. Please don’t take this as a criticism of lions-you have provided clear and convincing evidence that they are superior. But like all species, there is room for improvement. I am hopeful that in the 21st century, the lionesses of this world will be empowered to stop enabling the males. It’s all about self respect.
And thank you for that interesting information on mountain lions. I would be interested in any research you have done that shows that mountain lions are ‘the king of the beasts’ in the Americas. Many Americans falsely believe that title belongs to grizzlys 
I think My Lord has partly addressed this in #173 in reply to #172.
I’m somewhat perturbed to find that the previous cites had not included incidents of fights between Mountain Lions and Tigers. I assumed My Lord was going through the trouble to tell us about fights between all Lions and all Tigers, not just some particular varieties. If his statistics do not include documented fights between Ant Lions and Tigers and Social Lions and Tigers then there is a clear skewing in favor of Lions.
Then there was the time a fight broke out at the Detroit Sports Night.
Female Cougar and Grizzly Bear fight.
Ernest Thompson Seton (1929, 90-91) writes that G. W. Ferguson “recorded” a fight between a grizzly and a female cougar that was witnessed by two miners working a claim near Murry, Idaho. It was reported that a female cougar had a den and kittens in the vicinity, and when a grizzly, apparently unknowingly, approached the den, the mother cougar attacked the grizzly. During what the miners described as a fierce battle, the combatants fell off a mountain ledge and both where killed as a result of the fall. The miners claimed the cougar was still hanging on to the grizzly’s cheek with her teeth; the bears back and throat were torn and lacerated and "his belly hide ripped into ribbons, mute evidence of the fact that all her paws with their 18 sharp claws had not been idle
Ernest Thompson Seton 1929
Another instance of deadly confrontation between a cougar and black bear took place some time prior to 1800 near Schuylerville, now Saratoga, New York. An early settler, Mynheer Barhydt , had just built a cabin within Bear Swamp and witnessed the battle. Barhydt indicated that the bear had discovered the cougar’s den and, in the absence of the mother cougar, killed the cougar’s young. Soon thereafter, the cougar arrived and attacked the bear, reportedly with an awesome display of fury. The cougar eventually implanted her claws so deply in adversary’s body that the bear could not throw her off. In the struggle, which Barhydt claimed lasted more than an hour, the two animals rolled over each other into a ravine, and when all became still Barhydt looked down, over the edge, and saw both animals were dead. Stone 1975.
California Grizzly,TracyIrwin Storer
According to Frank Post of Big Sur, mountain lions sometimes were taken in the live traps built near Monterey to catch bears for the arena. Then a bear-and-lion fight would be aranged. Mr. Post saw such a contest at Castroville in 1865 when he was six years old, and remembered it vividly. The lion, which seemed to have no fear, leaped onto the bear’s back and while clinging there and facing forward scratched the grizzly’s eyes and nose with its claws. The bear repeatedly rolled over onto the ground to rid himself of his adversary; but as soon as the bear was upright, the cat would leap onto his back again. This agility finally decided the struggle in favor of the lion."
I went through all of your cites over the last several days and I am willing to concede now that a regular lion can consistently beat a tiger in a cage match or even a wild match.
However, this new wrinkle of a mountain lion being able to kill a bear is a little much. You say that mountain lions are the most adaptable of all cats. That may be true but bears are no slacker in that regard either. Have you ever seen Grizzly Adams or Gentle Ben?
Mountain lions simply aren’t all that big. The bear outweighs one by hundreds of pounds and has a much longer reach combined with much bigger claws. I even played with a mountain lion cub once and whipped his ass real good when he decided to start play fighting. I would like to know more about a mountain lion versus a bear before I make any firm declarations but I don’t see how that how that could be true.
1.)Cougar kills black bear in fight to the death.
One oft-mentioned tussle between a black bear and a cougar was apparently observed by Major John C. Cremony, who served with the U.S. Boundary Commission in the Southwest Between 1849 and 1951. Cremony, accompanied by Apache guides, had been hunting cougars along the Pecos in the vicinity of what is now Ft. Sumner when the group heard a dreadful but unidentifiable sound. Curious as to what could be making such noises and seeking out the source, they came upon a life-and-death battle between a cougar and a black bear. The bear was quite evidently not enthused about the encounter and would have liked to have broken off hostilities and gone away, but the cougar was apparently deeply intent upon killing the bear. After a number of skirmishes, the cougar successfully clawed through the bear’s vital organs. After despatching the bear, the cougar licked its wounds, took hold of the bear’s carcass, and dragged it to a more secluded place, where it began to cover the carcass for a later meal. It was at this point that one of the Apache guides killed the cougar.
~ Cremony, Life Among the Apaches, 1951, 225-26, a reprint of the 1868 edition.
2.)Female Cougar and Grizzly Bear fight.
Ernest Thompson Seton (1929, 90-91) writes that G. W. Ferguson “recorded” a fight between a grizzly and a female cougar that was witnessed by two miners working a claim near Murry, Idaho. It was reported that a female cougar had a den and kittens in the vicinity, and when a grizzly, apparently unknowingly, approached the den, the mother cougar attacked the grizzly. During what the miners described as a fierce battle, the combatants fell off a mountain ledge and both where killed as a result of the fall. The miners claimed the cougar was still hanging on to the grizzly’s cheek with her teeth; the bears back and throat were torn and lacerated and “his belly hide ripped into ribbons, mute evidence of the fact that all her paws with their 18 sharp claws had not been idle” (612).
~ Ernest Thompson Seton (1929, 90-91)
3.) Another instance of deadly confrontation between a cougar and black bear took place some time prior to 1800 near Schuylerville, now Saratoga, New York. An early settler, Mynheer Barhydt , had just built a cabin within Bear Swamp and witnessed the battle. Barhydt indicated that the bear had discovered the cougar’s den and, in the absence of the mother cougar, killed the cougar’s young. Soon thereafter, the cougar arrived and attacked the bear, reportedly with an awesome display of fury. The cougar eventually implanted her claws so deply in adversary’s body that the bear could not throw her off. In the struggle, which Barhydt claimed lasted more than an hour, the two animals rolled over each other into a ravine, and when all became still Barhydt looked down, over the edge, and saw both animals were dead. (Stone 1975, 137-39, and Bradley 1940, 116).
4.) " According to Frank Post of Big Sur, mountain lions sometimes were taken in the live traps built near Monterey to catch bears for the arena. Then a bear-and-lion fight would be aranged. Mr. Post saw such a contest at Castroville in 1865 when he was six years old, and remembered it vividly. The lion, which seemed to have no fear, leaped onto the bear’s back and while clinging there and facing forward scratched the grizzly’s eyes and nose with its claws. The bear repeatedly rolled over onto the ground to rid himself of his adversary; but as soon as the bear was upright, the cat would leap onto his back again. This agility finally decided the struggle in favor of the lion."
(California Grizzly,TracyIrwin Storer)
5.)" The Indians of California told stories of fights between grizzly bears and lions, with the lion normally the winner, and hunters and others relate stories of fierce conflicts with no clearcut winner, and most often two losers. They describe them as terribly noisy fights with the ground torn up where the skirmishes occurred. The bear would rise to meet the cat’s thrusts and throw the cat to the ground. The cat would grasp the bear near the throat and use its hind feet to rake the bear’s stomach and chest. The bear was stronger, but the clawing of the cat was highly effective, injuring the bear and causing it to release its holds. Normally they would part, both bloody and battered and neither the winner."
(The Great Bear Almanac)
6.) “Three California accounts detail something of the antagonism between the grizzly and the mountain lion, or panther. Livingston Stone (1883 : 1189) was told by the McCloud River Indians that the panther always killed the grizzly when the two fought. They said that the grizzly was afraid of the lion and that the latter would spring on the bear’s shoulders and cut its throat. Stone saw places in the mountains where the ground had been torn up, evidence of a desperate conflict between a panther and a bear. The Indians said they had found bears killed by panthers but no panther a bear had killed.”
(California Grizzly)
7.) An actual bear-and-panther fight in the central coast region was watched in the 1840’s. Three hunters, originally seeking a female grizzly with cubs, had been grounded by the escape of their horses. Going cautiously along a creek bordered by willows and grapevines, they approached a waterfall that plunded into a green, transparent pool over which a large tree had fallen.
“With the sounds of the torrent came . . . the growls of two wild beasts, alternate and furious.
On the right hand, squatted on one end of the bridge, was a small , male grizzly, and opposite to him, at the other end, a fully grown panther, who was tearing up the bark of the trunk, and gathering and relaxing her self as if for a spring. The alternate roaring of these infuriated beasts filled the valley with horrible echoes. We watched them a minute or more. The bear was wounded, a large flap of flesh torn over its left eye, and the blood dripping into the pool. My companion bade me shoot the tiger, while he [Colin Preston] took charge of the bear. We fired at the same instant; but, instead of falling, these two forest warrior rushed together at the centre of the bridge, the bear rising and opening to ceceive the tiger, who fixed her mighty jaws in the throat of her antagonist, and began kicking at his bowels with the force of an engine. At the instant both rolled over, plunged, and disappeared. We could see them struggling in the depths of the pool; bubbles of air rose to the surface, and the water became dark with gore. It may have been five minutes or more before they floated up dead, and their bodies rolled slowly down the stream. (Anon., 1857 : 823., California Grizzly)
8.)Another natural fight between grizzly and mountain lion was described in the San Bernardino Argus of 1873 (Ingersoll, 1904 : 371):
Some hunters were witness to a desperate fight in the San Jacinto mountains, the other day, between a mountain lino and a bear. The fight is described as terrific. The superior strength of the beat easily enabled him to throw his antagonist down, but the latter used his paws and jaws so fearfully that the bear could not keep him under. Both animals were covered with blood. They fought till both were exhausted, when the lion dragged himself off to the jungle, leaving the bruno in possession of the field.
~ California Grizzly
9.) "A FIGHT TO A FINISH BETWEEN A BEAR AND PANTHER
By S. C. Turnbo
I am told that one who never witnessed a struggle between a bear and panther can hardly realize the strength put forth and the ferocity exhibited by these animals. A combat between them is so desperate, and to watch them as they tear each other’s flesh with teeth and claws and see the blood stream from countless wounds and hear their ferocious snarls and growls is indeed blood curdling. Though the writer never witnessed such a sight but from accounts given him by settlers and hunters many encounters of this kind have occurred and I have written down a few of the more interesting accounts to show the awful struggles between these animals for the mastery when they get in each other’s way. Among these is one given me by Mr. Gideon Baughman who lived on Crooked Creek seven miles below Harrison, Arkansas. He related the story to me in July, 1896, a short while before his death. He told the story in the following way. "When I was a boy my parents lived in Iron County, Missouri. I was just old enough to take a lively interest in hunting for game. The country there was new then with plenty of small game as well as bears and panther. One time while hunting near a narrow creek or slough called Cranes Pond I heard loud growls which evidently were produced by enraged animals. The noise seemed to be at the pond. Though only a boy my curiosity was aroused to know what sort of wild animals had met and were about to get into a fight. Advancing cautiously until I saw what they were I was surprised to see a bear and panther on a log which lay across the creek where the water was about 25 feet deep. The animals had approached the log from opposite sides of the creek and they both wanted to cross over on the log but each was in the other’s way. When I came in sight of them the bear was sitting on the log over the water and the panther was on the other end of the log advancing slowly toward the bear. Both animals seemed to be in a rage and were growling fiercely. When the panther got in reach of the bear the latter struck it a terrific blow with his paw which sent it into the water with a splash. But quickly recovering it swam out on the same side it started from and leaping on the log walked fearlessly up to the bear again. But bruin was ready and with another severe blow sent the panther back into the water, but immediately it swam back to the same bank it started from. When the bear struck it the second time the former dropped on his feet and walked across the log. As the panther leaped up the bank the bear had reached the end of the log and here they met on the bank and without further ceremony both animals clinched together in a savage combat.
It was terrible to witness. They growled, whined, bit and clawed until their hair was red with blood. Neither one seemed to want to show the white feather. After they had fought several minutes the bear caught the panther in his hug in such a way that the panther’s back lay against the bear’s breast. Then another scene followed. The bear sat on his haunches and as he tightened his embrace his antagonist surged desperately to release itself. For a while it seemed that the bear would come out victorious, but with a desperate struggle the panther succeeded in turning its body face to face with the bear. Then ensued the greatest scene of the fight. The panther with the sharp claws on its hind feet ripped the bear open and let out its entrails. At this bruin uttered a piteous noise and seemed to realize that he was done for, and with a last effort he crushed the panther so hard that it was unable to make further resistance. The bear released his hold and both animals sank to the ground in the agony of death. Bruin died first but his enemy lived but a minute or two after. They had fought to a finish and ceased to be in each other’s way. Both animals were of medium size and in good condition. I went home for assistance and we skinned the panther and took the bear home and used the meat. Since that time," remarked Mr. Baughman, “I have witnessed many hard fights between animals but the encounter between the bear and panther was the fiercest and most bloody I ever witnessed between domestic or wild animals.”
http://thelibrary.org/lochist/turnbo/V15/ST444.html
10.) FINDING A PANTHER GUARDING A DEAD BEAR
By S. C. Turnbo
In the month of July, 1824, Jane Coker, Joe’s eldest sister, married Charley Sneed. Neighbors lived far apart then but a few days before the wedding came off Buck Coker sent for his friends to come and be present when his daughter and Charley were united in the bonds of matrimony. Among Coker’s most intimate friends was Payton Keesee and he was among the invited guests. Elias Keesee informed me that he was two months old when this occurred and that his parent told him that it was a hot July day’s ride through the wild woods from where they lived on Little North Fork to where Buck Coker lived at the lower end of the Jake Nave Bend on White River to be present at that wedding on the following day. Soon after the marriage Sneed and his wife located on Osage Creek seven miles west of Carrollton. Sneed’s residence stood on the road leading from Carrollton to Huntsville and near the mouth of a hollow called Jews Harp. Sneed and the Cokers, in visiting each other, beat out a trailway. The country looked so wild then that it made the visitors feel lonely to pass through back and forth between the Sugar Loaf country and Osage Creek. On a certain time Joe Coker paid his sister and brother-in-law a visit and as usual he had gone alone. Two years afterward he told the story of this journey through the wilds of Carroll County to Dave McCord, and Mr. McCord related it to the writer and here is the way it was told me. Mr. Coker said that he did not take the precaution to carry a gun with him on that trip but he met nothing serious until on his way back home. “While I was riding down Lead Mine Hollow which flows into West Sugar Loaf Creek on the west side,” said Uncle Joe, “I saw a huge panther crouched down at the side of a dead bear which lay at the foot of a post oak tree that stood at the side of the pathway. The panther was guarding the bear. The two savage animals had met here and engaged in a terrific fight and the bear was killed. The scene of the encounter was in a small prairie bottom with a few scattering trees and nearly ? of a mile above the mouth of the hollow. I rode up as close as I dared to view the ferocious beast and its dead adversary and the spot where they had fought. The panther showed much anger at being disturbed and growled fiercely and rose on his feet and threatened to spring at me. I needed no second warning and gave the enraged beast plenty of room at once and it lay down again at the side of its dead victim. The grass under the tree was all mashed down and stained with blood and the hair on both animals was red with blood. It was evident that they had met here and fought only a few hours previous to my arrival. Part of the outside bark of the tree was raked off from about two feet above the ground to four and five feet up the tree trunk. Evidently when the bear found that he was receiving the worst end of the fight he had attempted to escape up the tree but his powerful antagonist had pulled him back and he had clawed the bark off with his paws in trying to hold to the tree while the panther was preventing him from going up the tree. Appearances indicated that the bear had made several efforts to climb the tree before his enemy finally killed him.” Mr. Coker said that when he left them and went on home he intended to return back with gun and dogs and try to kill the panther, but on his arrival at home something occurred which prevented him from going back. Mr. McCord said that Uncle Joe gave him this account in 1838. The combat between the wild beasts took place two years before or in 1836. “Coker’s story aroused my curiosity,” said Mr. McCord, “and in company with my brother, John McCord, I visited the spot where Coker told me the right occurred and we found evidence of the combat was still visible. The marks on the tree made by the bear’s claws showed very plain and the shattered bark which had escaped destruction from the forest fires since the fight lay around the roots of the tree, and a few of the bear’s bones were found in the grass under the tree. Doubtless if Coker had reached there sooner he would have witnessed a terrible scene of savagery, blood and war between these angered animals of the forest.”
http://thelibrary.org/lochist/turnbo/V12/ST363.html
11.) And this from Grey quoting Buffalo Jones, who was a warden at Yellostone NP in the early 1900’s :
Jones discovered, while in the park, that the cougar is king of all the beasts of North America. Even a grizzly dashed away in great haste when a cougar made his appearance. At the road camp, near Mt. Washburn, during the fall of 1904, the bears, grizzlies and others, were always hanging round the cook tent. There were cougars also, and almost every evening, about dusk, a big fellow would come parading past the tent. The bears would grunt furiously and scamper in every direction. It was easy to tell when a cougar was in the neighborhood, by the peculiar grunts and snorts of the bears, and the sharp, distinct, alarmed yelps of coyotes. A lion would just as lief kill a coyote as any other animal and he would devour it, too. As to the fighting of cougars and grizzlies, that was a mooted question, with the credit on the side of the former.
http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/lit/western/TheLastofthePlainsmen/chap15.html
lol
Since you are still trumpeting the superiority of lions, just don’t forget you’ve posted more cites of horses killing lions than lions killing horses.
My Lord.
Trumpeting?
:):)
This list from the World Wide Web should hopefully put this issue to bed.
Lion vs Tiger Who’s The Baddest Cat?
Personality Matrix
Work Ethic
Lion - Lazy
Tiger - TCB
**Brings It **
Lion - Does not bring it
Tiger - Brings it
Player Style
Lion - Ho style
Tiger - Pimp style
**Political Affiliation **
Lion - Libertarian
Tiger - Independent
Dance Style **
Lion - Boot Scooting
Tiger - Tango
**
Mary or Rhoda
Lion - Rhoda
Tiger - Mary
Mojo
Lion - Minimal
Tiger - Maximized
Medicinal value of penis in Chinese medicine
Lion - Zero
Tiger - High
Verdict is *TIGER!!**XD XD XD
